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JoeChartreuse

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.......Posted elswhere on the forum:


Pesented without comment from me, for your perusal, the GEM series licensing agreement.


http://www.soundchoicestore.com/skin1/images/SCLicense.pdf


The discussion point of the thread, of course, would be your opinions, Pro and Con.

I only ask that you please read carefully- ALL of it- before deciding how to comment.

If this was posted elsewhere here, and I missed it, my apologies in advance for a rehash.
 
JoeChartreuse said:
.......Posted elswhere on the forum:


Pesented with out comment from me, for your perusal, the GEM series licensing agreement.


http://www.soundchoicestore.com/skin1/images/SCLicense.pdf


The discussion point of the thread, of course, would be your opinions, Pro and Con.

I only ask that you please read carefully- ALL of it- before deciding how to comment.

If this was posted elsewhere here, and I missed it, my apologies in advance for a rehash.

:sqerr: Go back to bed Joe! All is quiet on the Western Front and we want it to remain that way!:sqlaugh:
 
Just posting info, Houston, and looking for opinions. Believe it or not, it doesn't HVE to get nasty. Just yea or nay, and why.

Either way, if no one comments, at least the agreement is now available here for viewing and personal use....:sqwink:
 
I read it in its entirety -- I'm not sure I would sign my ex-wifes name to it (and I hate her)... :sqerr:

There are so many loopholes for their convenience, that I'm not even sure that would hold up as a contract...

[REDACTED]

I removed my line item thoughts -- they can pay for their own lawyers. This was obviously not drafted by someone with a legal background.

[/REDACTED]
 
It a 5 year license that requires you to pay whatever they decide (later ) if you want to keep it after that time.

At least with the cdg discs you don't have to re-buy them every five years or pay a fee.

Also, paragraph 4 section (I) bars you from suing them if THEY violate an artists intellectual property. I would imagine anything deemed to be improperly or not licensed.

It's a marriage contract in my opinion and one that I wouldn't touch.
 
You will comply in all respects with the reasonable requests of the auditor, making available for inspection your equipment, files, and accounting records relating to karaoke entertainment activities.

Accounting records? People actually have ACCEPTED this?

attachment.php
 
Im guessing if you are a part of the Legal Team in support of this effort one might be honored exempt status.
 
Moonrider said:
Accounting records? People actually have ACCEPTED this?

attachment.php

The need and purpose of accounting records is the ability to see if more than the purchased systems are operating on the same night, of course only a legit operator is even going to bother with accounting records!

And those records and more are going to have to be supplied if one of the suits ever reaches court! Not having them will be a major setback for any defense unless you can prove you have never conducted a show for monetary gain! (note I didn't say for profit)
 
Thunder said:
The need and purpose of accounting records is the ability to see if more than the purchased systems are operating on the same night, of course only a legit operator is even going to bother with accounting records!

And those records and more are going to have to be supplied if one of the suits ever reaches court! Not having them will be a major setback for any defense unless you can prove you have never conducted a show for monetary gain! (note I didn't say for profit)

I disagree. Accounting records won't prove anything... except to get an idea how much money you make to decide how much to charge you on a renewal. Similar to asking for a price and them responding with: "How much you got?"
 
If a person is in business in a serious manner then they keep records, dates, money earned, etc.. If they are Beer money DJs and KJs then you are probably right!
 
Okay, I've looked over this thing with a fine-toothed comb and these are some of my impressions. Feel free to intelligently argue any point you like, these are my opinion on a paragraph-by-paragraph basis:

Paragrah 1: pretty much boilerplate stuff

Paragraph 2:

"You are responsible for obtaining any necessary licenses or permissions prior to any public performance of the underlying musical works."

Other than the club paying the 3 rights societies (ASCAP, BMI, SEASAC), I can't for the life of me know what other "licenses or permissions" a KJ could possibly need. Lyric reprint and synchronization should already be paid by SC prior to the creation of the karaoke track...right?

Paragraph 3:

So there is a time limit (or "term")of this license. However, I don't quite understand why it says; "for the purpose of conducting a commercial business or for private home use." since it was my understanding that this set is NOT for...

Paragraph 4:

Sec. (a): "It is not for private home use or for license to the general public."

Sec (b) "You may not export the Media or Content from the Licensed Territory."
i.e. Don't move out of the country.

Sec (c): Regarding Media-shifting: "We do not, by this Agreement or otherwise, indemnify you against any action or claim by any third party."

The only "third parties" that I can think of is once again, the publishers or writers... So what they are saying here is that SC is giving you permission to shift it, but if a publisher sues you, then too bad for you.

Sec. (d): Nothing particularly suspicious here.

Sec (e): This basically says that they won't sue you if someone working for you copies your drive ONLY IF you rat on them and the clubs they are working for. Of course, if the person that steals from you simply says; "He/she said I could" then all bets are off.

Sec (f): No removing the trademark or anything else... (i.e. you will display our advertising all the time)

Sec (g): Stickers? This smells like something that they will have a venue look for. i.e. no sticker, don't hire 'em. It will be basically your "on site license" for anyone who wants to check on your hardware. Especially if a venue is signed up with the 'Safe Harbor' program.

Sec (h): Load then entire disc(s) not just the songs you want.

Sec (i): "moral rights?" Would someone please look that one up? I haven't a clue what that is and the problem I have with this entire section is that this is simply karaoke as a "jockey" and how would we ever know if we infringed on the rights of the "creator of content?" Besides, "creator of content" is NOT defined as to whether it is SC that created this content OR the original writer or publisher. It's simply to vague to be trusted in my opinion.

Sec (j) Sorry, my "accounting records" are not for public display nor are they even available under any kind of "agreement" with a vendor. And the sneaky catch-phrase; "audit coverage extends to any Sound Choice®-branded karaoke track" means that if you have any CDG discs that you purchased years ago, they are now fair game under this agreement.

Paragraph 5:

This paragraph basically insures that their logo will always be shown with their tracks and printed nicely in a song book... but that's really not all:

"these provisions constitute appropriate efforts on our part to maintain control over the quality of the karaoke tracks and your services,"

A small word can have a LARGE meaning in contract law. Take the word "and" for example. Let's re-read this again and simply skip over the part that relates to their product and see how you like it then:

"these provisions constitute appropriate efforts on our part to maintain quality ... AND control over your services,"

Does that sound different to you? Since the word "and" is used it certainly does apply to the quality and control of their product, AND their control of YOUR business.

Paragraph 6:

This is again a hollow promise not to sue and it also includes the other big word "OR"...
"you (whether direct or indirect) is a defendant in a currently pending lawsuit in
which we OR a related company is a plaintiff,"


So, you could be fully "compliant" with Sound Choice but if Stingray sues you, all bets are off (again). AND (that big word again) they have not clearly defined what "related company" means. Again, too open-ended.

Paragraph 7,

Section (a)
First of all, your "purchase" of the gem series is not, in fact, a purchase at all, it's a lease. It's a 5-year lease when you first sign it then --if they haven't changed the terms in the 5th year, you'll pay a fee of $100 for the next 3 years.... (is it "per disc?", or "per set?")

Sounds legit to you? Don't count on it because it sounds too good to be true. I beileve that it will be a cold day in hell before they ever "fail to offer specific renewal terms." So your "purchase" of the gem series (6,000 songs at $0.67 each = $4,020.00)is roughly $804.00 per year. Do you think their renewal on a year-to-year basis is going to suddenly drop to a measley $33.33 per year for the next three years?

Why would anyone do this if they already have the cdg that has been paid for? Wouldn't it be better just to buy the cdg and bring it in to your show? They can restrict the home user from bringing in their discs, by threatening you with a violation under paragraph 4, sec (i) as the "creator of the content" then you are now their policeman.

Section (b)
You are not just leasing the songs on the "original medium" but you are also leasing the "identification sticker" that goes with it.

Section (c)
In English: If you don't make your payment(s) or miss payments, game over.

Section (d)
Sure you can terminate it anytime you want.... here's how.

Paragraph 8:
Boilerplate warranty disclaimer.

Paragraph 9:

They can notify you by email but you CAN'T notify them by the same method (email.)

Paragraph 10:

This lease is executed in North Carolina and you agree if they sue you for anything that you will bear the expense of fighting it out there. You ALSO agree that if you sue them for any reason, you also agree to do it there.... not where you live. (they get local lawyers, you get long-distance).

"The choice of forum and choice of laws provisions hereunder are bargained-for terms
of this Agreement."
It's a bargain alright, and here's the bargain, "agree or don't get the songs."

Paragraph 11:
Don't drop dead during this agreement or we'll sue your widow AND your kids because you agree to let us do so.

Paragraph 12:

Okay, even I'm confused. See if you can figure this part out when it comes to a modification of the agreement:
"or (b) by our written notice to you of a change in terms coupled with your failure to refuse the change in terms within 90 days after that notice was given, or (c) as to any non-accepted change in terms under part (b) above,"

IN CONCLUSION, (it is my opinion),

That KJ's look at this deal as "buying songs" when in fact, you're "leasing a trademark" that is subject to change.

Naw, I think I'll pass...
 
Thunder said:
If a person is in business in a serious manner then they keep records, dates, money earned, etc.. If they are Beer money DJs and KJs then you are probably right!

Doesn't matter... Accounting records for a private business are private. Just ask SC to add a clause that you can look at all their accounting records and see how far you'll get with it.
 
Thunder said:
And those records and more are going to have to be supplied if one of the suits ever reaches court! Not having them will be a major setback for any defense unless you can prove you have never conducted a show for monetary gain! (note I didn't say for profit)

That's fine and dandy if the judge wants to see 'em as evidence in court. As far as another business goes, well sorry, nunya bidness bro!
 
I'm not going to bother reading it for one simple reason:

Why would I want to license a karaoke set when there are so many others I could buy under conventional retail terms?
 
Thunder said:
The need and purpose of accounting records is the ability to see if more than the purchased systems are operating on the same night, of course only a legit operator is even going to bother with accounting records!

And those records and more are going to have to be supplied if one of the suits ever reaches court! Not having them will be a major setback for any defense unless you can prove you have never conducted a show for monetary gain! (note I didn't say for profit)

Steve, there is no implied right to review anyone's records - even in a lawsuit. Such a review can only be obtained volunatrily or compelled by a judge.

A judge will not compell such a review if you cannot sufficiently substantiate your claim independent of the review you are seeking. It is the basic rule of search and siezure that applies in all cases civil and criminal.

"Might be a pirate" is not adequate cause to compel an audit.

Secondly, a person getting paid to KJ or DJ does not constitute a commercial use of music. The commercial use is that application for which the music is an enticement. In the case of karaoke lounges - that is food and liquor sales, not the employment of a DJ.

The DJs employemnt status and wages are set by contract and do not change with the music - but the liquor and food receipts do. Being a full time DJ/KJ and having personal property (music collections) does not make you a commercial user - the venue is the commercial user.

This is precisely why weddings and private events are exempt from performance royalties because, there is no commercial gain derived by either party to the contract from the performance or music itself. The DJs employment status and wages are again set by contract and there is no commercial benefit derived by the bride/groom and family as a result of music bing played. The DJ's income is produced directly as the result of his labor - not the content being played. Unlike the club's liquor sales - your income is unaffected by your choice of the Bride's kindergarten concert or Michael Jackson.

There is a separate contract between the bride/groom and the function hall and gain is derived by the function hall by allowing music during private events. As a result, the venue is still required to have an ASCAP/BMI license even where the DJ and client are exempt. (Note that if you have the wedding in your own backyard instead of a venue - no one is susbject to a performance royalty.)

I cannot undertstand why so many DJs do not understand this very basic reality about commecial use and how it relates their career. It is sad because, they are then easily manipulated by their own ignorance.

The lawyers for SC are visiting venues and suing for trademarks rather than individual DJs for copyright - becasue, without a venue or other commercial application they have no grounds upon which to act on trademark or copyright. Soundchoice (clever but evil) is squeezing the venue to get juice from the DJ. Soundchoice with it's public statements is trying to manipulate DJs into believing they are without certain protections to intimidate them into purchases of questionable value.

SoundChoice with it'snew license is not offering you a solution to pirascy - they are trying to sell you a $12 bottle of water.
 
Yea I think I'll pass too. I didn't read the whole thing but when I got to the part that says that SC will retain ownership rights of the discs even though you have possession of them doesn't mean that somewhere down the road after selling lots of these discs to various KJ's they can decide to recall all of the discs and fold up business. Who in their right mind would buy something that they really never ever own. Would you buy a car, house, or anything in full only to have someone come and get it just because they wanted to?

Get real anyone that buys (rents) these sets could be in for a large headache when SC decides to recall them making you delete all of them from you hard drive, and to boot having to pay to renew the license?

NO WAY JOSE
 
To be honest I support Sound Choice's efforts overall but i do not like the idea of having to lease the Set from them and then pay another fee after 5 years?? When i buy things i do like to truly own them
 
I must admit I am severely conflicted.

If the songs I wanted were available on CDG, then most likely i would buy them instead. However currently they are not.

I understand why soundchoice has done it this way. The first payment is for the cost of producing the music. The second is a liscensing fee.

This model has been used by other companies before. In canada, instead of paying a license every year directly to the AVLA you can 'buy' a licensed drive that is full of music and then pay a monthly*or yearly* fee to receive all their updates via secure download, so your music stays current and legally licensed.

The difference is I believe you can sell the harddrive at any point as long as the other person is willing to pay the subcription fee.


On the other hand, stellar is offering all its current music on mp3+g discs, and once you pay for them that's it. But again stellar doesn't seem to be having the problems that soudchoice is in regards to the volume of tracks that are being stolen. It's almost as if somehow they were able to obtain 'fairer/cheaper' licenses to make their tracks. *shrug*

The rest of it I was kind of expecting and I personally don't have a problem with it. Right now, it is all pointless because I am not working, but if I ever get a new gig, I'm going to have to seriously consider which route I want to take.

I must admit, it would be nice to have a set of tracks that I wouldn't have to carry the discs for. The sticker would be my proof of purchase/legality. *Note carrying your discs with you is not a legal requirement where i live, but it is the only way that the local distributor for karaoke in Calgary/Alberta will leave you alone*

Maybe by the time I find new work custom cdgs will be available again :sqconfused::sqfrown:

-James
 
Jclaydon, Check out SBI karaoke for some good custom CDG's , they've got some good stuff........not as good as Sound Choice but i've gotten some hard to find songs on custom CDG from them
 
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