What the hell?!?

D

Diesel

Peak Forum Legend
PF Member
http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/06/26/pledge.allegiance/index.html

SAN FRANCISCO, California (CNN) -- A federal appeals court ruled Wednesday that the Pledge of Allegiance to the U.S. flag cannot be recited in public schools because the phrase "under God" endorses religion.
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It's not about religion. It never was. It is a pledge of loyalty to your country, not a religious oath.
The 2 judges who voted for this should be disbarred, since they are federal judges, and have no loyalty to their country.

For our non-American soupers, here is the Pledge Of Allegiance:
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
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I heard that this afternoon, I was very disappointed! BUt I was VERY glad to see that Bush wants them to vote again!! It isn't about religion, but the point is, GOD and only GOD has brought this pathetic country to where it is, and we need to realize that he can put us back to where we need to be put if we don't smarten up! This is getting sad...we need to wake up before it's too late!
I have alot more to say on this subject...but I won't subject ya'll to it right now!:tongue:
 
Originally posted by AlyJsMommy
I heard that this afternoon, I was very disappointed! BUt I was VERY glad to see that Bush wants them to vote again!! It isn't about religion, but the point is, GOD and only GOD has brought this pathetic country to where it is, and we need to realize that he can put us back to where we need to be put if we don't smarten up! This is getting sad...we need to wake up before it's too late!
I have alot more to say on this subject...but I won't subject ya'll to it right now!:tongue:
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It has nothing to do with God, and everything to do with being patriotic. It's nothing more than a pledge of allegiance to the United States, and at the very least, children in public schools, which are being supported and subsidized by the government of this country should be saying this pledge on a daily basis.

And I take issue with you saying that this country is pathetic. If it's so pathetic, pack up your stuff and leave. You do have the freedom to make that decision, and you also have the freedom to call it pathetic. These are freedoms that you clearly take for granted, since I can assure you that if you were in a country that did not offer such freedoms to its citizens, you wouldn't be so quick to criticize with such comments.
There are countries on this planet where you could be shot or thrown in jail for saying anything negative about the country.

Keep that forthright in your mind the next time you call this country "pathetic".
 
Originally posted by Diesel Dan
It has nothing to do with God, and everything to do with being patriotic.
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imo, it has everything to do w/god and secondly, being patriotic - which i am by the way, and proud of it :) i feel that if it weren't for god, none of us would even be here to be patriotic in the first place :D
 
Originally posted by spidergoolash


imo, it has everything to do w/god and secondly, being patriotic - which i am by the way, and proud of it :) i feel that if it weren't for god, none of us would even be here to be patriotic in the first place :D
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I understand where you're coming from, but that's another issue entirely.
If you read the words of the Pledge, it's not a religious expression, it's a patriotic one. It is a patriotic pledge primarily, and isn't religious in nature despite the phrase "under God".
It isn't declaring one's loyalty to God. It's declaring one's loyalty to country.

Whether there is a God... creation vs. evolution... whatever. Those are seperate discussions entirely, and have no real weight in dealing with the issue of the Pledge Of Allegiance.

Of course, people being unable to seperate the two and not interject one into the other is exactly why we have this mess right now. It's a matter of seeing things in context. The guy that brought this case to court clearly is one of these people who is unable to view something in a specific context, and hence, has blown everything way out of proportion.
 
eh.. like i said before in the chat room.. this country will be turned into pillars of salt soon anyways.. so who the hell cares..
 
Dan said...

If you read the words of the Pledge, it's not a religious expression, it's a patriotic one. It is a patriotic pledge primarily, and isn't religious in nature despite the phrase "under God".
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The Pledge is indeed a patriotic expression. As such, the phrase "under God" should never have been added in 1954 in the first place. Adding "under God" doesn't change the nature of the pledge into a religious oath, but rather adds an element of "religiosity" that (because it is embedded in such a powerful statement of patriotism) can make one who believes differently seem unpatriotic.

To quote from the CNN article...

The court said the 1954 insertion of "under God" was made "to recognize a Supreme Being" and advance religion at a time "when the government was publicly inveighing against atheistic communism" -- a fact, the court said, the federal government did not dispute.

The appeals court noted that when President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed the act adding "under God," he said, "From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty."
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I'm glad someone took this case to court. It's bugged me since high school that the phrase was in there, and I've never had the courage to work to try to change it. I'm glad someone else *has* shown the courage.
 
I think it's important for kids and people to pledge their loyalty to the country they live in, but I do feel the words "under GOD" should be removed. Part of what makes this country so unique with it's freedoms (such as religion) is that people can have whatever religion they chose to believe in. GOD is not a part of everyone's religion so this pledge currently is only catering to those that believe in "our" GOD. So I strongly believe that the best way through this is to say the pledge minus the words "under GOD" cause it makes no sense to say "under various GODS of the religions we hold in America".

On the other hand, if they are going to ban the pledge then they'd have to ban the money we have. On the coins and paper money reads "in GOD we trust". Does this mean that we have to stop using the term GOD in everything we use? So to argue my own point, maybe it's silly to even have an issue with using the term GOD in everything (including the pledge). By protecting all religions we complicate more things than necessary. Why not just kinda think of GOD as a symbol of whatever belief you hold and not just GOD the almighty!
 
Originally posted by Lysithea
it makes no sense to say "under various GODS of the religions we hold in America".
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At 2001 in England was population census. And ... some peoples typed into 'religion' field : "Knight of Jedi" ...
Also ... classical buddhism does not have gods ... but it is religion too ...

So ... the best is to say :

"under various GODS of the other religions and another religions without GODs and with FORSE we hold in America"

Even this stroke is not politically correct, coz ... exists church of Satan ... woodoo wisards ... extra-sensor ... shamans ... cosmopolitans ... etc etc etc
 
This is funny. I'm the athiest of the group, and I'm the only one saying that all of this fuss is for nothing and we should just leave everything the way it is, because it's been working. No need to rock the boat...
:lol:
 
Originally posted by Diesel Dan
This is funny. I'm the athiest of the group, and I'm the only one saying that all of this fuss is for nothing and we should just leave everything the way it is, because it's been working. No need to rock the boat...
:lol:
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Haha You didn't read my message carefully. I said after all that that it's silly to argue this. Cause you can't change everythign that says the word GOD that's on every little thing we put it on.

Psst: I don't believe in religion actually so it would seem strange that I actually have some feeling about this.
 
yeah, yeah. i know it's a political statement and all, but i just like the god reference in there. it makes me feel more secure. so i'm still standing by my original statement, even though it wrong :lol: i can twist it around a little to suit me :D
 
Originally posted by Lysithea


Haha You didn't read my message carefully. I said after all that that it's silly to argue this. Cause you can't change everythign that says the word GOD that's on every little thing we put it on.

Psst: I don't believe in religion actually so it would seem strange that I actually have some feeling about this.
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While you say it's silly, the guy who originally brought the suit is actually endorsing the removal of "In God We Trust" from legal US tender.
:rolleyes:
 
Hehe, Yeah I just saw that on CNN. Meanwhile a guy just stated that swearing on the bible in court is not in the constitution adn neither is the quote "so help me GOD". That one president Bush added himself.

Like I said by removing all meantion of GOD that we have already used is just too much. We put GOD on so many things. why change it. It's silly. WHat's next? Removing Santa Claus to protect the other religions that don't have Santa Claus? "In Santa Claus We Trust"!

Why is this starting to remind me of the South Park episode where the town had to remove everything relating to Santa Claus and christmas cause it was offensive to other religions and people?
 
Ok, I guess im the loan wolf that doesnt like the pledge because I hate forced patriotism. Dont get me wrong, I love this country, and I wouldnt want to live anywhere else. The freedom that we have is something very special, and I wouldnt give it up for anything. I just dont think that our children should be forced to say some pledge every morning. Ever since sept 11, I have seen an increase in patriotism, which is a good thing, however I dont like the fact that it is being shoved down our throat everywhere we go. Anyway those are just my thoughts, im sure im about to get jumped but oh well.
 
Originally posted by Prox
Ok, I guess im the loan wolf that doesnt like the pledge because I hate forced patriotism. Dont get me wrong, I love this country, and I wouldnt want to live anywhere else. The freedom that we have is something very special, and I wouldnt give it up for anything. I just dont think that our children should be forced to say some pledge every morning. Ever since sept 11, I have seen an increase in patriotism, which is a good thing, however I dont like the fact that it is being shoved down our throat everywhere we go. Anyway those are just my thoughts, im sure im about to get jumped but oh well.
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I guess I differ from your opinion only in that, if a child is going to a public school, which is being funded and subsidized with government money (IOW, the US government or their state goverment is paying for their education), the LEAST that should happen is they should pledge loyalty and allegiance to this country.

Think of it as their way of thanking the government for giving them a free education and asking them for nothing in return.

By accepting a government subsidized education, it would be very wrong for them to not pledge allegiance. Otherwise, they're just exploiting a system for their benefit. They're taking a handout, then attacking the provider.

Now, if they want to pay for their education, then I have no problem with their choice to not pledge, even though I would encourage them to.

And I don't think patriotism has been forced down anyone's throat since 9/11. Rather, I feel that a spirit of patriotism has been stirred in a great many people in this country, and the rest are merely being encouraged to do likewise, and take pride in the achievements and accomplishments of this country and its citizens.
 
I always wondered about the "under God" statement as well. It doesn't seem to fit in a country where there are people with many religions, and also those who do not believe in God at all.

It clearly states "GOD" in the pledge.
That bothers me.
 
I, like Dan, think it has nothing to do with religion and more to do with an oath of patriotism. The best way to see this is to imagine one so patriotic that he or she will swear allegience to this country, and if a God exists, he or she will be willing to make that God a witness to that oath.

Personally, "under God" should be optional. I would revise the pledge as so:

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation (under God,) indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
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Of course, I'll keep saying it with "under God."
 
JH> Even written as such, again, people are taking it out of context. The reference is that God is a witness to the nation, not to the personal oath.
 
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