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Abortion

Basically, until the 'whatever' is capable of conscious thought, and isn't simply a parasite, then it is considered alive by me.
And I agree with that defective issue- honestly, no-one wants a defective child, but it's only their... what's the word... conscienmce that stops them getting rid of it, and they put themselves through all that suffering.

And Buster, WHY do most of your sentences START with a load of CAPital letters?
And GOD is a matter for ANOTHER discussion.
 
What is consince thought? Depending on your definition, that would mean you're ok with baby killing, outside of the womb.

Ask some people who are defective, if they would like to live a "normal" life, many will tell you no. Also many people are more accepting of people different from them. Special qualities are found in these "defectives" that aren't found in "normal" people.
 
i think the comment about disabled people was a little off...but anywho...

replying to mrlister from a few days ago: going through the pain, morning sickness, etc is just part of pregnancy. what about the positive emotional connections like when the baby kicks or when you finally see it when you give pregnancy? being pregnant has its ups and downs, but in the end, look what you get.

advance: i dunno about the whole "baby is not alive at this date...baby is a human at this date" business, but i feel that the fetus is a future/potential human, so killing it is basically killing a human being.

i'm really tired of the abortion issue though. just think of it this way: abortion was not always legal and around in the US. so why did someone have to bring it into the world anyway? it's just like the euthanasia crap. these are all debates that will never ever get solved and not everyone is going to be happy with the results
 
I'm also not understanding the population control stuff. Last time I checked, the United States had plenty of room for more people. This isn't China. I am not trying to prove anyone wrong really, I'm just wondering why people think abortion controls the population?

I never thought the United States population needed to be controled...
 
Regardless of whether it's a problem now, it will be, and there's nothing wrong with dealing with a problem before it's a big one. Additionally, if there wasn't a problem, why don't we just let everyone emmigrate to the US? However I do NOT think that abortion is the way to control population.
 
You assume that life is the most valuable thing that humans possess, and I disagree. That's the reason we also disagree on the death penalty business. If you think I'm for killing babies, maybe I am. It makes no difference whether it's a baby or it's a "pre-baby." Killing it is still for the better. I guess I'm just a big, evil utiliatarian.

As for the brief euthanasia point by GINA, that's entirely different. If anyone wants to kill themself, who are we to say they can't do it?
 
Advance, I see a double standard. You say we shouldn't interfere with an old, sick person's decision whether to die or live, yet you think an outside source should determine the fate of a baby/pre-baby.

Advance, just out of curiosity, what do you think the point of life is?
 
I just had to reply . . . .

Sorry for getting in on this one too, but some of the comments are just too funny.

First of all, as far as figuring out when “life” actually happens, that is totally dependent on the individual and what they have been taught. That is not a debate either side will win very soon, if ever. So, with that said, it makes that point moot. Let’s consider it an abortion of a future life form.

Then we get into the question of the baby’s life. Is the life the child can lead worth bringing it into the world? Who is anyone to say, and who are they to be able to tell. Statistically people born in underprivileged homes will stay underprivileged their entire lives, and will give birth to more underprivileged. There are always exceptions to this, though. I know some of you are eager to point that out.

Next is adoption. Say the family cannot take care of the child, adoption is a viable alternative, I hope obviously more attractive than the baby’s death or abandonment. The adoption system in the United States is so backwards and convoluted there are children out there who grow up and are never adopted. Sadly the statistics do not favor those who are adopted either, especially when talking about getting into a loving home and breaking from underprivilege. Again there are always exceptions to this.

If we allow abortion on the grounds of mental state, again we always find exceptions of people who do not meet the social standard of mental normalcy, deemed retarded, and still manage to accomplish more than anyone would guess (but not more than would be expected of “normal” people). It would help to keep the recirculation of genetic disorders from the gene pool, but I know a lot more “normal” people who should be bleached out of the gene pool.

When speaking about population control, the idea of the United States not needing to contribute to the control of an exponentially growing world population is ridiculous. The United States need to lead and support the world in population control efforts. China has limited its support of children only to the majority party, so in the United States that would equate to the white Christian majority. It supports multiple children in its minorities and does not mandate couples only have one child, just that the government will not support anything other than one.

Gina, I’m sorry to say, the abortion issue, like euthanasia, has always been around in the United States. Native Americans have abortion in their history before white people came here. There have always been people who would do abortions, even in the 20th Century abortions were performed, but often with a coat hanger or some such device. Is that what you want to go back to?

Also, the issue between abortion and euthanasia is extremely similar. It is about an individual’s ability to choose how their life will go. It is all about the power to determine the goals and objectives of the individual, and how they will get there. Euthanasia, like abortion, hinges on this one paradigm.
 
Quick quote-

"Using contraception is surely mass murder! Think of all those millions of sperm who will die needlessly!"

Yes, Sperm-- The active component, and one half, of a pre-baby.
You tell me that any time you have sex, you're not killing millions of possible humans.
 
Originally posted by mb90078
Advance, just out of curiosity, what do you think the point of life is?
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"To be yourself." I read that on some sappy something somewhere. It sounded good.
 
Buster said:
You would rather not existed on this earth, than face a life of possible poverty and possible suffering that you COULD change.

What exactly are you smoking do you realize what you have just spoke. GO tell that to the judge, the defense for abortion would love that.

ANd this whole thing about "its the woman's body let her to what she wants with it," than why do we out law drugs, its our bodies let us do the drugs and kill our selves! IT is only her body because it was given to her by her mother and father for giving her birth, for NOT aborting her!

GOD gave us life, and we in turn should give life to others.
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i agree with everything you have said in this thread
 
Okay I copied what I said in other thread since we should post in this one continuously to round all views. Side note: I'm not totally against other's views but logically see flaws into being ALWAYS pro-life as end of this post will show that a girl may die giving birth.


Abortion is hard to debate because it ties science and ultimately moral values and/or religion. I side with the feeling that a fetus is life. It was created biologically. However I do side with those that believe abortion should be available to those who are victims of rape. The mother-to-be didn't have the choice in producing life, she would undoubtedly be forced to care for a child whose father was a criminal. It's a burden she shouldn't carry especially. Those that are Pro-Life Extrema that say this person should bear the child and then put up child for adoption, well well that's another debate. I see adoption as a nice aspect but if they claim adoption works then why are there still orphanages?

I do agree that a fetus is life. I do agree that a woman shouldn't have the choice because she finally decides she doesn't want a child of a mistake of sexual activity with a partner. Those that practice sexual activitiy that didn't want children in first place should use birth-control. However I disagree like I said above that women that got forced to sexual activity (rape) then if there wasn't a "choice" which means two ways (1. Birth or 2. Abortion). She would be forced birth of a child she didn't have a part of or was in lines of doing. I do agree that partial birth abortion is out of question anytime even for rape. I mean rape is sad event of life and most victims may have been pure virgins not even thinking of sex. To burden them with no "choice" and force birth is sad. It's like they can't do anything again--they stand still as victims by force and then they stand as mothers by law. I totally disagree that abortion is wrong there. Let those that are victims of rape (and only them) choose. But if she knew she just been raped and found pregnant it should be available but the abortion be done then. I don't think she should be wishy-washy about it. I do have a religious side everyone and in Bible it says two to make one in flesh. To procreate takes two people. In rape however it only took one the other was a victim.

Let's come up with a scenario and maybe you might change your view about it too. Here's a 10 year old girl. She get's raped by a vicious criminal who rapes her and tortures her with a knife but she survives. She finds she pregnant after all that. Because of her waif size and age she may have to get a Caesarean Section to fulfill birth. Now she is also told that the surgery may not go well because birth wasn't intended at her age plus she has damaged organs pierced from a knife from her rape. To her that means she might die because of it. She is given a 5:95 chance baby will survive with mother with damaged organs while she is bearing child. What are you to say then. Should she be forced to go through birth because abortion is illegal by law? Is a Pro-Life person going to advise this girl to become a mother? I think the girl would be very scared. She didn't even think of sex, she gets hurt in the most dire way and still lives and then you bring death closer to HER door to save a fetus that is spawned from the criminal that tried to kill her. You have to consider that possiblility there. In fact I'd like to see what others say about this in particular.
 
I'll say what I've said in other threads on other sites:

Until you're faced with the option yourself or helped a loved one face it, you can't make any sort of firm decision on the subject. Period. Up until that point, your decision/opinion is only academic.

I have faced the choice, as some of the old schoolers here know. So I can very firmly say that I'm personally pro-life but politically pro-choice. As kidlet #2 pummels me from the inside as I type, I can't understand how some people can view an incubating baby as "just a fetus," but it's not my job to teach you your morality. Everyone has to live with their own decisions.
 
mthrlangl said:
Until you're faced with the option yourself or helped a loved one face it, you can't make any sort of firm decision on the subject. Period. Up until that point, your decision/opinion is only academic.
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That is a good point. It is speculative on my part plus I am male so it doesn't directly affect me. However I have counseled rape victims in my tenure at a private school as a girl dorm proctor. This scenario in my last post is one that crossed my mind as the "far" end of using abortion to save the girl. I guess that's why abortion has been an ongoing issue to this day. Life is precious in all ways but in that academic opinion it only seems natural to go with the odds of survival for the girl.
 
I normaly stay out of threads that discuss topics as hot as this issue is, but for some reason I have decided to jump into this one. Partialy because this is something that I feel strongly about.

I personaly do not believe in abortion with the exception of extreem situations, however I also feel that it is absolutly none of my business. The question is way to philisophical and too much of a personal moral issue to ever be legislated.

Example:
A consenting couple decide to have sex. They do not want children so they use birth control (choose your method). Now if they were to have sex without birth control, then there is a chance that there could have been a life had all been left alone, so is birth control abortion?

It is nearly impossible to draw the line for everyone, which is why I am
personally pro-life but politically pro-choice
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-mth that was too well said, I had to use it.
 
Prox said:
so is birth control abortion?
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To some that is a whole other aspect of pro-life in itself. And it does tend to the grounds of religion and what sex is really for in terms of procreation alone and not for pleasure. Again it does go down to personal morals and yes as we all probably agree is that this subject is a complex issue.

Scary thought is it might even involve genetic engineering in near future as now we can determine the dna in the human body and search for flaws since it has been pretty much decoded with the completion of the genome project. It might be to the point like the movie Gattaca where parents only choose the healthy gened babies and forget the rest.
 
This is not really something I want to get into in detail, but I will say that I am in the same club with Mthy.

I think the decision is between a woman and HER god, whatever god that may be. We live in a diverse nation, and there will never be agreement on this. The Chrisitan Coalition still insists on pushing the issue but -HELLO- not everyone in this nation worships the same god, first of all. And secondly, abortions will still happen illegally and in uncontrolled unsafe environments if R. V. W. is overturned. From a social standpoint, there are issues of poverty and family systems as well.
 
Wow MO, that made a lot of sense. It never will get resolved when issues get bounded from different angles like you say whether legal or illegal. But like you and MTH also say it ultimately goes to the morals of a woman who undoubtedly carries the brunt of birth (or abortion) in either case. And you two woman have pointed out completely great points that males like the rest in this thread are just viewing it from outside. I think I'm through debating abortion myself, good insights all it broadens the view to me myself.
 
<touches the screen> Yeah, this one is hot!

If you don't think a fetus is a baby, go watch a sonogram.

Abortion, no matter what the circumstances, is the ending of an innocent life. You can call the baby a "fetus", you can try to justify it however you want, it remains the same: a mother, a father, both or just one, deciding that for whatever reason, they do not want to deal with the birth of a child, and so, they decide to end the child's life. A six month old "fetus" is a six month old baby. A two week old "fetus", is a two week old baby. A day old "fetus", is, a day old baby. No matter how you slice it, it is a baby, and it is innocent of any crime.

So, should we throw stones at people who have abortions? No. Could I understand why a 16 year old pregnant teenager, with no one in this world, would choose to have an abortion? Yes. I could. Could I understand how a woman who was raped decided to have an abortion? Yes, of course I could. But, and this is just one of those annoying things in life that, well, just sucks... the fact still remains, that even in those circumstances, an innocent child is being killed. Nothing anyone says can ever change that fact. You call it a fetus; I call it a baby, the fact still remains, if you leave that "fetus" alone, it becomes a baby. There is no magic that changes a "fetus" into a baby... it is a natural progression. A fetus is a human being before birth. Plain and simple.

So, a woman has an abortion, for whatever the reason. Now what? Well, my view is, we all do things in life we regret. We all make mistakes. Should I rot and burn in hell because, heaven forbid, I get drunk and kill someone while driving? So long as I have remorse, so long as I accept responsibility for my actions, and admit I was wrong, no, I don't think so. What I resent is the notion that an abortion is simply not wrong. The notion that it is a matter of choice, like picking a bed spread: a matter of preference. That is what upsets me most. It is so often said, that I as a man, have no right to tell a woman what to do with her body. That is a very nice smoke screen: a very clever way of chastising me for stating the truth. When you have an abortion, you are killing an innocent human being. How can you on one hand say that someone does not have the right tell another person what do with her body, but then on the other hand say that someone has the right to terminate the life of another completley innocent person?

Innocent human beings die. It is a fact of life. “Collateral Damage” in a war is the killing of innocents. Is it wrong? Of course it is, but sometimes wrongs are done. Such is the case with abortion. Again, my biggest objection is the removal of any guilt whatsoever. At least admit you are killing an innocent. From that point you can make progress, and perhaps prevent it from happening again. Make abortion illegal? Can't be done. Not today. Impossible. I think the best way to go about it is to allow the choice, but try to convince as many people as possible to CHOOSE NOT to have an abortion. To respect the right of a baby to be born. Babies, after all, truly are innocent.
 
goingnova said:
Innocent human beings die. It is a fact of life. “Collateral Damage” in a war is the killing of innocents. Is it wrong? Of course it is, but sometimes wrongs are done. Such is the case with abortion. Again, my biggest objection is the removal of any guilt whatsoever. At least admit you are killing an innocent. From that point you can make progress, and perhaps prevent it from happening again. Make abortion illegal? Can't be done. Not today. Impossible. I think the best way to go about it is to allow the choice, but try to convince as many people as possible to CHOOSE NOT to have an abortion. To respect the right of a baby to be born. Babies, after all, truly are innocent.
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Yes, but it's not *your* job to inflict that guilt. I'd wager that most women do well enough with that on their own.

Quite frankly, my biggest complaint with the whole rotten subject is the fact that things like sex ed are being taken out of schools. If you don't know what makes a baby in the first place, how the HELL are you going to prevent it?
 
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