ask the athiest
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I am a Christian. And I believe, undeniably that there is a God. A universe so complex and so ordered could not occur randomly. In every natural setting order always descends into chaos, never the other way around. I think the reason so many people have trouble understanding God or believing in him is that they always try to apply human limits to him. In allmost every other religion (Excluding, Judaism and Muslim, we all worship the same God) gods have limitations. The Greek and roman gods had human failings, they could lust, they could DIE! East Indian gods, Norse gods, every other god has had limitations. Man cannot conceive of something outside of his experience, therefor when man conceives of a god he applies human limitations to him. Well the Christian God has no limitations of any kind. He has no time or size. He is all knowing all powerfull and completely beyond all comprehension of mankind. He is separate and above all of our rules and has no rules that govern Him. He is was and always will be. The only way man can in even the slightest way describe God is to say that he "is." Man could not have conceived of such a being of his own accord. He could not have birthed it from his own mind, it must have been put their by God.
Lets do a little exercise. Someone please explain to me a universe that bears absolutely no resemblance to ours. That has nothing whatsoever the same. If you can do that then there is no God, but if you cant then there has to be.
I will omit the obvious limitation of written language as if you had even tried this exercise, just by typing you would have failed.
Lets do a little exercise. Someone please explain to me a universe that bears absolutely no resemblance to ours. That has nothing whatsoever the same. If you can do that then there is no God, but if you cant then there has to be.
I will omit the obvious limitation of written language as if you had even tried this exercise, just by typing you would have failed.
I see some of you are Agnostic. A Agnostic's position is a foolish position at that. If one claims he has an invisible pink unicorn on his head, do you refuse to answer whether there is one or not? There is no evidence that there is a higher being and thus there is no need to debate if there is one or not. The believers admit that it's a huge leap of faith, thus why question if we know their position is the complete opposite of logic and reason?
There is may unknowns in the world but why do we have to resort in the belief of the supernatural? Science is constantly telling us the answers to our questions, the unknown will be answered in due time. I refuse to live my life full of lies and I want the truth no matter how bad it hurts. Sure, it may be disappointing that there is no everlasting place of joy after death but hey at least there is no hell for people playing a lottery game.
Lottery game you ask? Why certainly! Having blind faith requires one to place their belief into something without thinking critically through with it. The religion they subscribe to will be one they were raised with or one that is the largest in their area. One person may be raised to be a Christian and thus go to heaven but one raised to be Buddhist shall go to hell? This is not justice, this is sick. Both people used exactly the same method for believing in their religion but it was simply a matter of luck where they were born at.
I'm a Atheist. I can't believe in a lie just to make myself happy. I'm also not Agnostic, because I don't need to travel the universe to decide if a three sided cube exists or not. I'm going to use the reason and logic which my brain has given me to find the truth and blast away the lies.
There is may unknowns in the world but why do we have to resort in the belief of the supernatural? Science is constantly telling us the answers to our questions, the unknown will be answered in due time. I refuse to live my life full of lies and I want the truth no matter how bad it hurts. Sure, it may be disappointing that there is no everlasting place of joy after death but hey at least there is no hell for people playing a lottery game.
Lottery game you ask? Why certainly! Having blind faith requires one to place their belief into something without thinking critically through with it. The religion they subscribe to will be one they were raised with or one that is the largest in their area. One person may be raised to be a Christian and thus go to heaven but one raised to be Buddhist shall go to hell? This is not justice, this is sick. Both people used exactly the same method for believing in their religion but it was simply a matter of luck where they were born at.
I'm a Atheist. I can't believe in a lie just to make myself happy. I'm also not Agnostic, because I don't need to travel the universe to decide if a three sided cube exists or not. I'm going to use the reason and logic which my brain has given me to find the truth and blast away the lies.
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Insane, at risk of unleashing your ire which I know will happen, I have to bring something up with you. You by admission are an atheist and have noted that we have a couple of agnostic members. You say their stand is "foolish". I disagree. In fact, I think the atheist way of thinking is foolish. Agnostics are pretty much saying they're not quite sure what to believe or not to believe so they're going to hang someplace in the middle to wait things out. You on the other hand have closed the door. Going by your posts quite firmly at that. For someone who portrays themself to be so worldly and wise you are quite judgemental and at first glance seem to think that your view is the only view. Good thing for the rest of us it isn't.
Insane_Cyborg said:
NOWERE in the Bible does it tell us not to think, not to question, not to analize and critically think about our faith!! IT ANCOURAGES IT!!!!!!!! I have never taken anything to be true no matter what, I do my research and I come to understand things. And since when has Religion become the antitheises to science. The two can go hand in hand. With both we come closer to a full understanding of our world then any other way. We use science to understand the whats and the wheres, we use Religion (I hate that word BTW) to understand the Whys. And we fill the things we cannot and never will comprehend with faith. God didnt want us to be dullards who never question and walk around like robots. He gave us free will because without it we are pointless.
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:applaus: Good post, Sicander.
Responding to mrsd607...
What are they going to wait for exactly? Nothing supernatural has happened in the FIVE MILLION YEARS that we humans have been on the planet, nothing is "magically" going to happen in the next five million years. What Agnostics are saying is that they refuse to make a logical decision. Instead of saying, "Gee I don't know" they should dismiss it right at hand as there is no evidence for a god. I have closed the door until I see some evidence, otherwise why should a door be open to ideas that have nothing to back them up?
Responding to Sicander...
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." --Proverbs 3:5
"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." --Proverbs 16:25
"Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ..." --2 Corinthians 10:5
Not only do I find it sad I know more of the Bible than you do, but you couldn't show one example of how the Bible encourages thinking. Blind faith is the exact opposite of logic and reason.
Evolution and Big Bang for starters.
Science is conducted to find out why things are the way they are, the Bible says the whys are this way just because it says so. The whats and wheres are already the first step, its the experiment which leads to the why. To say that religion and science can go hand in hand is a vast misunderstanding of the most basic fundamentals of each. Oh really? God didn't want us to be robots for his will? If that's true then why did the Bible say do not think as the quotes above mentioned? Free will would be for us not to go to hell if we decided not to believe in him, divine blackmail is not free will. If a mugger points a gun to you and says give me your money or your life, is that really "free will"? In the same instance, god telling you to believe in him or go to hell is that free will?
What are they going to wait for exactly? Nothing supernatural has happened in the FIVE MILLION YEARS that we humans have been on the planet, nothing is "magically" going to happen in the next five million years. What Agnostics are saying is that they refuse to make a logical decision. Instead of saying, "Gee I don't know" they should dismiss it right at hand as there is no evidence for a god. I have closed the door until I see some evidence, otherwise why should a door be open to ideas that have nothing to back them up?
Responding to Sicander...
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." --Proverbs 3:5
"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." --Proverbs 16:25
"Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ..." --2 Corinthians 10:5
Not only do I find it sad I know more of the Bible than you do, but you couldn't show one example of how the Bible encourages thinking. Blind faith is the exact opposite of logic and reason.
Evolution and Big Bang for starters.
Science is conducted to find out why things are the way they are, the Bible says the whys are this way just because it says so. The whats and wheres are already the first step, its the experiment which leads to the why. To say that religion and science can go hand in hand is a vast misunderstanding of the most basic fundamentals of each. Oh really? God didn't want us to be robots for his will? If that's true then why did the Bible say do not think as the quotes above mentioned? Free will would be for us not to go to hell if we decided not to believe in him, divine blackmail is not free will. If a mugger points a gun to you and says give me your money or your life, is that really "free will"? In the same instance, god telling you to believe in him or go to hell is that free will?
Insane_Cyborg said:
Perhaps I have the definition of "agnostic" wrong, but I always believed it to mean that one believed in a higher power, but did not agree with any of the known religions. Therefore they are not "waiting" for anything, they have decided there is a higher power but they do not believe in "God"
If that's not the proper definition of "agnostic" then please tell me.
Responding to Damm...
Theist - Believes in a higher being that interacts with the universe.
Deist - Believes in a higher being that created that universe but has abandoned it as it does not interact with the universe.
Agnostic - Believes it is impossible to determine whether a higher being exists or not.
Atheist - Does not believe in any higher being.
Theist - Believes in a higher being that interacts with the universe.
Deist - Believes in a higher being that created that universe but has abandoned it as it does not interact with the universe.
Agnostic - Believes it is impossible to determine whether a higher being exists or not.
Atheist - Does not believe in any higher being.
You can bash certain beliefs, because it IS a debate forum, but you can't bash people for having the beliefs cyborg.
People are allowed to believe in whatever it is that they want to believe in. You can think what they believe in is foolish, but dont call people foolish for believing what they do.
It was my understanding that Athiests (more or less) believed in Science. If they dont believe in any higher being... would you believe in Science... and philosophy?
People are allowed to believe in whatever it is that they want to believe in. You can think what they believe in is foolish, but dont call people foolish for believing what they do.
It was my understanding that Athiests (more or less) believed in Science. If they dont believe in any higher being... would you believe in Science... and philosophy?
A nice warning M! Insane has been skating on that "insult line", :laughing3 but so far has not directly insulted anyone in particular yet, although he has come oh so close! :D
Insane, you said "A Agnostic's position is a foolish position at that". By adding, "I believe" to that same statement, you just changed it from what can be perceived as insulting, to an opinion. While I personally could see what you posted as an "on the line" post, I do back up M fpr construing it as an insult.
It is just easier if you keep it non-personal. You are turning into a fantastic forum member, contributing quite a bit, and we would prefer you stayed around for a very long time! You are obviously a very bright individual, and I am sure you will figure it out. Thanks for understanding.
Insane, you said "A Agnostic's position is a foolish position at that". By adding, "I believe" to that same statement, you just changed it from what can be perceived as insulting, to an opinion. While I personally could see what you posted as an "on the line" post, I do back up M fpr construing it as an insult.
It is just easier if you keep it non-personal. You are turning into a fantastic forum member, contributing quite a bit, and we would prefer you stayed around for a very long time! You are obviously a very bright individual, and I am sure you will figure it out. Thanks for understanding.
Damm said:Hmm...thanks for the definition. I guess I'm not an agnostic then, I thought it meant something entirely different!
"The more you know..."
Heh... I think actually theres a webQuiz that you can take where it tells you your beliefs after asking you a bunch of questions.
I'll find it and put the URL here sometime. :rolleyes:
Cool, I'd like that link too.
For a long time I knew I didn't really feel comfortable following the Catholic view I was born and baptised to, and I also knew I wasn't fully atheist like my sibling... sort of an in between, but I had never encountered the word to describe that, until Agnostic. At the time, it was just lightly explained as the 'middle' ground and I took to it.
Perhaps the given definition doesn't quite fit what I feel about myself. I don't think it's utterly impossible to prove anything or decide on a faith, just, I want to continue looking for what might be right for me.
And oh, how too bad that I have at least a 6 hour difference with North America, since a lot of the hot discussions go on while I sleep! I'd bash it if it were more of a problem, and, furthermore, most of you are in the US anyway...I'd only truly be understood by our brit friends and other people I didn't catch what country they're in at the moment.
For a long time I knew I didn't really feel comfortable following the Catholic view I was born and baptised to, and I also knew I wasn't fully atheist like my sibling... sort of an in between, but I had never encountered the word to describe that, until Agnostic. At the time, it was just lightly explained as the 'middle' ground and I took to it.
Perhaps the given definition doesn't quite fit what I feel about myself. I don't think it's utterly impossible to prove anything or decide on a faith, just, I want to continue looking for what might be right for me.
And oh, how too bad that I have at least a 6 hour difference with North America, since a lot of the hot discussions go on while I sleep! I'd bash it if it were more of a problem, and, furthermore, most of you are in the US anyway...I'd only truly be understood by our brit friends and other people I didn't catch what country they're in at the moment.
Great post people!
It's realy good to see what others think on this as I only really had firefly's opinion at first.
I have to admit Insane was being pretty nasty about other people's beliefs and seems to think that anything he says is the only opinion you can have and is the right one...well that's what it seemed like anyway.
But thanks for putting the definitions up it can sometimes get really confusing as to what your beliefs are put as.
p.s can I have the link too :D
It's realy good to see what others think on this as I only really had firefly's opinion at first.
I have to admit Insane was being pretty nasty about other people's beliefs and seems to think that anything he says is the only opinion you can have and is the right one...well that's what it seemed like anyway.
But thanks for putting the definitions up it can sometimes get really confusing as to what your beliefs are put as.
p.s can I have the link too :D
it would be interesting to see what kind of religion your beliefs fall under i think i might have found a test like that myself i'll see which one this is in case its the same one...although i might have dreamt that test since it was a while ago and i'm tired now so....
you strange ickle girl katrine
i resent being called ickle although you are taller than me...
lol so basically i have the point there not you
now if i called you a child that would be different
now if i called you a child that would be different
Responding to M@Broz...
Did I say Agnostics are foolish or did I say a Agnostic's position is foolish? Reading comprehension is a wonderful thing. The difference, if one can not already see is I'm not saying the person is foolish but rather I'm saying a belief of their's is ill founded.
I agree, it's their right to believe what they want. I have yet to call anyone foolish, all I have done is call a certain belief of their's ill unfounded.
Yes of course, Science and philosophy are instruments of logic and reason.
Responding to GoingNova...
What difference would there truly be if I said, "I believe?" It's my opinion right from the start and I didn't say anyone was foolish but I said a certain belief of theirs is ill founded.
~ mrsd607
~ Me
There's no difference between these two lines except one says the Atheists's position is ill founded and the other is saying an Agnostic's position is ill founded. Note that I place two times the word position, there's nothing indicating in that sentence that I meant the person directly is foolish. What you're saying is I add the word "I believe" just for the sake of saying it, even though its placed inside the sentence already as its my opinion. Maybe I should just add I believe to every single sentence I post? Come on now, really.
I have yet to make anything personal. Thank you for your kind comments but I think both you and M@Broz have a misunderstanding upon what I said. I completely agree with the premise that there should be no flaming on the site and to keep it civilized, but you guys over step the line and go against anything that may in the slightest sound offensive to someone else. You tell me to use the words,"I believe" yet that is already in every sentence one posts because it is their opinion... seems you want to sugar coat it.
