Ok I dont know how many times Im gonna have to say this to get it to sink in! I never said you could not believe what you want you are free to do that. I dissmiss other religions as that is part of my religion!!!!! I have nothing agains any of you!! When did christians get this unescapable stigma that we force our beliefs on people. I have told you what I belive, take it with a grain of salt if you want. And also If you read my previous posts you will notice that I said many times you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven without Christ, He doesnt come in different forms, He was flesh and blood, Jesus of Nazereth. He was God but he was also man! That is the basic concept of why pagans and other religions who do not acknoledge Jesus, even thought they know of Him, that is why they don't make it to heaven. Again if you choose to not belive that it is your choice. PLEASE dont make me repeat this again. I have said it many many times now! (If I do it to much more the mods are going to get mad for spamming. lol)
ask the athiest
- Thread starter dont argue with this guy
- Start date
Nightwolf, I am going to have dig deeper. You really are the first person I have ever known that doubted that Jesus lived. :D
Ok, here I go, "In Search Of..."
Ok, here I go, "In Search Of..."
I have found some more links:
Link 1
Link 2
I get a lot of questions about my faith, and to a "non-believer" who is logical, I often offer this little bit. Again, this would be the most BASE level of belief. Perhaps this might be the first step toward looking into believing.
If you look at the life a Christian is "supposed" to live, and if you lived this sort of life, would it make you a better person? Yes, or no. If you answered yes, next question, would being a Christian go against anything you believe morally? If you answered no, next step. If you live your life as a Christian, would it be so bad? And finally, now you die.
You are a Christian, and you die. You were right, you met God, and you live eternity in Heaven. You are wrong, was living a life as a Christian really that bad? OK, you are an atheist, and you were right: was anything you did in your life so RADICALLY different that what you would have done had you been a Christian? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, but, you were right, and there is no God, so, who cares. But what if you are wrong? What if, when you die you stand before a God you never believed existed. What do you do? What will He do?
I don't know. Some people believe you will go to hell, others believe that through the mercy of God, you will be forgiven. I don't know. I don't pretend to know. All I do know is, I don't want to be in that situation. :laughing3
Is this the best reason to believe? Far from it. But I already believe. I think this is something a "non-believer" should ponder. :D
Link 1
Link 2
I get a lot of questions about my faith, and to a "non-believer" who is logical, I often offer this little bit. Again, this would be the most BASE level of belief. Perhaps this might be the first step toward looking into believing.
If you look at the life a Christian is "supposed" to live, and if you lived this sort of life, would it make you a better person? Yes, or no. If you answered yes, next question, would being a Christian go against anything you believe morally? If you answered no, next step. If you live your life as a Christian, would it be so bad? And finally, now you die.
You are a Christian, and you die. You were right, you met God, and you live eternity in Heaven. You are wrong, was living a life as a Christian really that bad? OK, you are an atheist, and you were right: was anything you did in your life so RADICALLY different that what you would have done had you been a Christian? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, but, you were right, and there is no God, so, who cares. But what if you are wrong? What if, when you die you stand before a God you never believed existed. What do you do? What will He do?
I don't know. Some people believe you will go to hell, others believe that through the mercy of God, you will be forgiven. I don't know. I don't pretend to know. All I do know is, I don't want to be in that situation. :laughing3
Is this the best reason to believe? Far from it. But I already believe. I think this is something a "non-believer" should ponder. :D
Read a book called mere christianity by C.S. Lewis, it is quite possily the best description of christian belifes ever put together and it wil answer some very tough questions very logically. A very short essay was written on it and I will link you too it.
http://www.aslan.demon.co.uk/trilemma.htm
Mere Christianity covers very logically every delema we have discussed here. He Covers the claims of Jesus divinity, he covers why "living a good life" isnt enough, he covers why a good God could create such a bad world, he covers why science isnt the antitheasis to God, and explains why bad people go to hell. Its all there laid out VERY well. Its a short book, in book terms, and an easy read. If you won't read though the Bible READ THIS. If nothing else you will understand your christian neigbors ALOT more!
http://www.aslan.demon.co.uk/trilemma.htm
Mere Christianity covers very logically every delema we have discussed here. He Covers the claims of Jesus divinity, he covers why "living a good life" isnt enough, he covers why a good God could create such a bad world, he covers why science isnt the antitheasis to God, and explains why bad people go to hell. Its all there laid out VERY well. Its a short book, in book terms, and an easy read. If you won't read though the Bible READ THIS. If nothing else you will understand your christian neigbors ALOT more!
Sicander said:
I think it was sometimes around the crusades...
In anycase, thanks for all the links! I think there are SOME christians out there that give most a bad name...just as I know plenty of believers of islam that are horrified by recent world events done in the name of their religion...but that's an extreme example.
You guys are ok, I don't think you are too pushy at all...you have both provided very interesting information and Sicander is obviously someone who enjoys a good debate.
Nightwolf the question that you aer really searching for i think is whether Jesus was the som of God not whether he exists because there is reference to him in Judaism (however its spelt) and i think maybe in Muslim texts but i'm not quite sure. the belief that seperates Judaism from Christianity is that Jesus was the son of god (i know thishas already been said but i felt like reinforcing it) which i the real question i think you are trying to ask because there is proof that he really did exist.
Kath I already know this and guys please stop I know this is a debate and everything but I feel like you two are trying to force me into going into Christianity I know you might think your not but that's how it feels. I don't want to be preached to.
but anyway I have a question...why can't we sin if God is going to forgive his childredn anyway???
but anyway I have a question...why can't we sin if God is going to forgive his childredn anyway???
Nightwolf04 said:
hehehe, we are not trying to convince you to join Christianity (we don't get referral points :eusa_ange), we are just explaining what we know about our religion.
In regards to your question, answered quite simply, do you do things that make your parents upset, just because you know they are going to forgive you? A relative or a close friend will most likely forgive you if you do something wrong, do you do it because you know they will forgive you?
When we sin, we hurt God, and ourselves don't forget. Most (not all) of the things that are considered sins have serious consequences. It hurts God to see his children doing things that are potentially damaging to them.
Fankoo that always confused me to be honest
And ok sorry but it seemed like you were
And ok sorry but it seemed like you were
GoingNova said:
good point, that aspect is more clear to me now.
That was a lot to catch up to after being gone for a week. Interesting how the converstations unfolded, though...
Nevertheless, I still feel full of questions I can't seem to put to words at the moment...
:bunny:
Nevertheless, I still feel full of questions I can't seem to put to words at the moment...
:bunny:
we need to find some jewish people and get their perspective on things.
just quickly before we move off the christianity thing what i dont get is how people cant get christianity (i mean there are somethings i dont get but i get most of it) i mean the base of their belief is that the son of god came and cleared them from their sins (i know thats a little over simplified but hey work with me here) i dont get how people can argue whether he exists or not there is corroborating evidence that he did and the fact that he was son of god is debatable and a leap of faith by christians but what really annoys me is that people who are atheist (in england this is) as far as i know have to say that they are CofE because atheism isn't an option on those type of forms which annoys me slightly actually i have no clue what my point is so i'm just gonna stop now...
Damm said:
oh yeah forget i said that lol
Hello!
This is my first post... I've been browsing this thread, and thought I should throw my 2 cents in. First, let me say that I am a Christian. It always upsets me when I hear other Christians (or people of other religions) say that all atheists are stupid or evil. In all honesty, I can understand your opinions. The idea of a higher entity is hard to fathom. The idea of a Satan is hard to fathom, as well. When I look at the world, and see all of the pain and suffering; all of the people that kill in the name of the Lord, I wonder why a loving God would let it all happen. The answer that I've come to is that it is all based on free will.
Jim Caviezel (who played Jesus in "The Passion of the Christ") was talking to the (now late) Pope about Democracy. I don't remember his exact words, but he said something along the lines of, "Isn't Democracy only a good thing if you have a moral society? If you have an immoral society, doesn't Democracy, and thus freedom, just give people the power to do ill?" The Pope responded, "Democracy is not the power to do what you want. Democracy is the power to do what you aught."
Freewill follows the same path. God could remove all pain and suffering from the world, but by doing this he would take away freewill. To enter the gates of heaven, you must accept Jesus Christ as your savior, do your true and honest best to follow his teachings, and ask for forgiveness when you stray. I know that you have been hearing "Jesus loves you!" your whole lives, but it really is true. God wants you to follow him.For faith, or being saved, or heaven, or hell to have any meaning, there must be two things... The first is choice. God want you to follow him, but it has to be your choice. It's hard to explain why, but it just does. God could force you into it, but then what has he created? For there to be choice, there must be more than one option. If you are forced into a fighting for a cause, are you really following it? You're only truly following it if you chose to follow it. Why does evil exist? Because it's the other option. It's the other choice. As you see, I'm not trying to prove the existence of God. I will admit, I don't think it can be done. God does not exist as part of the four dimensions that we know so well; he exists within them, but not as part of them. Even if I could prove beyond any doubt that there is a God... I wouldn't. Faith is "a firm belief in something for which there is no proof." (Webster) The second thing is doubt. There must be doubt for there to be choice. If we could prove all that the Bible says, would anyone not be a Christian? No one would chose to lose their place in heaven. No one who believes all that the Bible says isn't a Christian. It would be foolish not to be. "If Christianity is true, than it is the single most important thing ever. However, if it isn't true, it is completely and totally worthless." I don't remember who said that, but it's true. By taking away doubt, you take away choice; and by taking away doubt and choice, you take away faith. Christianity would no longer be faith... It would be fact. It would have no meaning.
I'm only 16, and I don't pretend to know everything. I don't even say I can be sure that everything I just said is correct... but I have faith.
This is my first post... I've been browsing this thread, and thought I should throw my 2 cents in. First, let me say that I am a Christian. It always upsets me when I hear other Christians (or people of other religions) say that all atheists are stupid or evil. In all honesty, I can understand your opinions. The idea of a higher entity is hard to fathom. The idea of a Satan is hard to fathom, as well. When I look at the world, and see all of the pain and suffering; all of the people that kill in the name of the Lord, I wonder why a loving God would let it all happen. The answer that I've come to is that it is all based on free will.
Jim Caviezel (who played Jesus in "The Passion of the Christ") was talking to the (now late) Pope about Democracy. I don't remember his exact words, but he said something along the lines of, "Isn't Democracy only a good thing if you have a moral society? If you have an immoral society, doesn't Democracy, and thus freedom, just give people the power to do ill?" The Pope responded, "Democracy is not the power to do what you want. Democracy is the power to do what you aught."
Freewill follows the same path. God could remove all pain and suffering from the world, but by doing this he would take away freewill. To enter the gates of heaven, you must accept Jesus Christ as your savior, do your true and honest best to follow his teachings, and ask for forgiveness when you stray. I know that you have been hearing "Jesus loves you!" your whole lives, but it really is true. God wants you to follow him.For faith, or being saved, or heaven, or hell to have any meaning, there must be two things... The first is choice. God want you to follow him, but it has to be your choice. It's hard to explain why, but it just does. God could force you into it, but then what has he created? For there to be choice, there must be more than one option. If you are forced into a fighting for a cause, are you really following it? You're only truly following it if you chose to follow it. Why does evil exist? Because it's the other option. It's the other choice. As you see, I'm not trying to prove the existence of God. I will admit, I don't think it can be done. God does not exist as part of the four dimensions that we know so well; he exists within them, but not as part of them. Even if I could prove beyond any doubt that there is a God... I wouldn't. Faith is "a firm belief in something for which there is no proof." (Webster) The second thing is doubt. There must be doubt for there to be choice. If we could prove all that the Bible says, would anyone not be a Christian? No one would chose to lose their place in heaven. No one who believes all that the Bible says isn't a Christian. It would be foolish not to be. "If Christianity is true, than it is the single most important thing ever. However, if it isn't true, it is completely and totally worthless." I don't remember who said that, but it's true. By taking away doubt, you take away choice; and by taking away doubt and choice, you take away faith. Christianity would no longer be faith... It would be fact. It would have no meaning.
I'm only 16, and I don't pretend to know everything. I don't even say I can be sure that everything I just said is correct... but I have faith.
That was a most excellent first post Whind Soull.
I very much enjoyed reading it, and I'm glad that chose to contribute to the thread.
Personally, I believe in a higher power, but I do not believe in any of the established religions in the world. However, I have much respect for all those who do have faith in one of the many established religions. The capacity for kindness is amazing in religion, but I find the capacity for abuse turns me away from most of them.
A couple of years ago, when I was going through a very rough time, a christian friend hid a note in one of my textbooks that said: "Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you."
I nearly cried, which seemed stupid to me, since I have and continue to tell this friend that I do not believe in God or the church as she knows them. But, I always remember how nice it was to read that note and for a brief second feel like there was some one that DID care about me...or two people, since my friend had obviously cared enough to leave the note.
In my youth I was a dedicated atheist, and thought that christians believed in God because they wanted to live under the delusion that there was life after death and that we didn't all just cease to exist. But the more people I meet and talk to in life, the more I understand the ideas behind religions and the capacity they have to bring kindness to the world...and I am always thankful when I meet someone who follows their religion in the 'good' way, instead of using it to justify acts of violence and hatred.
Which is why I really enjoy this particular thread on the forum.
I still don't believe in any of the world religions though
(I think this post is a bit all over the place, and I'm not sure what my point is...but it's 2am and I've spent all day writing an essay on the holocaust...so, forgive me.)
I very much enjoyed reading it, and I'm glad that chose to contribute to the thread.
Personally, I believe in a higher power, but I do not believe in any of the established religions in the world. However, I have much respect for all those who do have faith in one of the many established religions. The capacity for kindness is amazing in religion, but I find the capacity for abuse turns me away from most of them.
A couple of years ago, when I was going through a very rough time, a christian friend hid a note in one of my textbooks that said: "Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you."
I nearly cried, which seemed stupid to me, since I have and continue to tell this friend that I do not believe in God or the church as she knows them. But, I always remember how nice it was to read that note and for a brief second feel like there was some one that DID care about me...or two people, since my friend had obviously cared enough to leave the note.
In my youth I was a dedicated atheist, and thought that christians believed in God because they wanted to live under the delusion that there was life after death and that we didn't all just cease to exist. But the more people I meet and talk to in life, the more I understand the ideas behind religions and the capacity they have to bring kindness to the world...and I am always thankful when I meet someone who follows their religion in the 'good' way, instead of using it to justify acts of violence and hatred.
Which is why I really enjoy this particular thread on the forum.
I still don't believe in any of the world religions though
(I think this post is a bit all over the place, and I'm not sure what my point is...but it's 2am and I've spent all day writing an essay on the holocaust...so, forgive me.)
Whind Soull, :Welcome:, and what an excellent post! :eusa_clap Especially since it was your first! Thanks for joining the Bash, and welcome to our ever growing family!
Wow excellent first post :Welcome: that too hehe
After reading all of this I'm quite undecided. I'm not sure wether I believe what I used too or believe nothing at all.
It's always complicated when it comes to what you believe as you said about free will everyone seems to believe different things even if they follow the same religion.
*sigh* so many things to find out about and so little time :eusa_sile
After reading all of this I'm quite undecided. I'm not sure wether I believe what I used too or believe nothing at all.
It's always complicated when it comes to what you believe as you said about free will everyone seems to believe different things even if they follow the same religion.
*sigh* so many things to find out about and so little time :eusa_sile
