Bombing Iraq?? what's with the Bush family!!!

withuot voicing an opinion, I'll relay some facts just for the record...

What WaterB said about Hussein, is indeed true -- his attempts at genocide against the Kurds have let many to lable him as "the worst man since Hitler"

Under Hussein, Iraq has recently and continuously interfered with US and British planes in
the no fly zone, which breaks UN sanctions.

Iraq has been constantly firing scud missiles toward
Israel, and currently Hussein is training over 300,000 soldiers to assist the Palestinians in their conflict with the Israelis.

(this Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a *completely* other issue which merits, perhaps ever more debate)

Just a few from the devil's advocate to give a more equal footing, factually, to this debate.


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monsieurjohn: we have 2 yaks on campus
KNSinatra: you lie.
monsieurjohn: no i don't. i don't know what they're doing here, but they're real.

En fuego, bebe.
 
It's hard to negotiate with someone who persistantly states that you're Satans followers and that they are doing God's will yet kill their own people and invade other nations.
cool.gif
 
I can't believe this is still being debated.

One always hears the rhetoric that Hussein doesn't allow observers into Iraq, that he perceives the US to be Satan, that he's the worst thing since Hitler, ad infinitum. It's sad to see that people blindly believe the rhetoric that is spouted and make no attempt to get at the crux of the issue.

Iraq did indeed invade Kuwait, and Iraq is wrong for doing so. Of course, Hussein *did* pester the US ambassador to Iraq for months before the invasion, checking to see if there would be ramifications, to which he was told repeatedly, the US has no opinion as it would be essentially an internal Iraqi/Kuwaiti conflict.

Saddam Hussein summoned U.S. Ambassador April Glaspie to his office in what seems to have been a final attempt to clarify Washington’s position on his dispute with Kuwait. Glaspie assured him: "We have no opinion on Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait. ... [Secretary of State] James Baker has directed our official spokesmen to emphasize this instruction." She said she was expressing official policy. On 24 July, she had received a cable from the State Department explicitly directing her to reiterate that the United States had "no position" on "Arab-Arab" conflicts.

Were we wrong for telling Hussein it was ok? Of course - but it makes better soundbytes to say that Iraq is the aggressor and we had no hand in anything. Sheesh, if we didn't give our implicit go-ahead, this never would have happened.

Remember the oil crisis in the 70's? Not many of you do, I'm sure. For those that do: did you know that Kissinger wanted to keep events liek that from ever happening again, so he put into effect a plan that involved the creation of armed forces and a policy to *specifically* take out an oil-producing Arab country? And that after a while Norman Schwarzkopf was placed in charge of said group in the 80's, well before the Gulf conflict?

WaterB said:
how would you like it if you're own country's army started dropping Chemical and Biological weapons on you?
The US has already done that, my friend. Both to wartime military, and to peacetime civilians. Agent Orange, Project MK Ultra, heck, here in Rochester last year there was a scandal because local civilians in the 40's & 50's were used as test subjects without their knowledge - dangerous radioactive isotopes were injected into their bloodstreams without their knowledge. And if I recall correctly, didn't we dump chemical weapons on US soldiers ("accidentally", of course) during the Gulf War?

scarier said:
negotiations have been attempted for many many years, and nothing has come of them.
Negotiations in *ill faith* have been attempted for many years. The example with the US ambassador is just one: lets not forget the "negotiating" we did during the Iran-Iraq War, either.

Al made mention of the Iraqis seeing the US as followers of Satan. This is true in a sense: but if we try to see their statements as *they* see it, rather than as we do, it takes on a whole new context. They don't see Satan as an evil demon with horns, hooves, and all that, like we do. I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) they see Satan as a liar and a deceiver, which is closer to at least the biblical (old testament) perception of "satan". When you look at how the US has treated Iraq for so long, you can see how perhaps their perception is justified.

Want to learn more?
http://www.iacenter.org/fireice.htm
http://www.halcyon.com/wfrazier/iraq.htm
http://msanews.mynet.net/MSANEWS/199802/19980226.2.html
http://www.wakefieldcam.freeserve.co.uk/iraqchronology.htm

Just remember, everyone - there's more to the news than what USA Today and your government would have you know.

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My knob tastes funny.
 
I dispise war. I wanted to be a naval officer, and when they started trying to brainwash me that I was a "killer", I resisted and ended up washing out. I knew too well what they were refering to when they called combat boots, "baby killers." The mere thought made me want to vomit. You see, that reference is of a village in Vietnam called Mi Lai. American soldiers went in and slaughtered everyone...including women, children, and babies. Such a thought makes my heart sick. I then decided I was not military material.

I am not slamming American soldiers. I whole heartedly support our troops abroad. They are brave people who serve their country with skill and dedication. I just question our motives with other nations, sometimes.

I just think that the U.S. and her allies should embrace a Prime Directive approach to other countries...to not be involved in their internal affairs. This leaves our and our allies' military forces in a more defensive role rather than a "policing the world" role.

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Does driving a car from Saturn make me an alien?

That which does not make me barf, makes me stronger - possum37, fugly.net guru.
 
While I agree with you on war, I strongly disagree with your last paragraph. Sometimes military force is needed in 'policing the world' to stop human rights abuses. When Indonesian militias went on a spree of murder and destruction in a final attempt to keep East Timor as a part of Indonesia, it was Australian-led forces that went in, stopped the militias, and turfed them out. East Timor's now well on it's way to being a democratic nation.

Isn't going in in such circumstances more important than defense?

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One door closed is one door opened
One more memory fades away
Such grand dreams we all have chosen
We lost our innocence along the way
- Rose Bygrave, "Innocence"

PsychoticIckyThing.Com
 
JHowse: I just think that the U.S. and her allies should embrace a Prime Directive approach to other countries...to not be involved in their internal affairs. This leaves our and our allies' military forces in a more defensive role rather than a "policing the world" role.
Ditto my own France and several other european Countries, Jonathan. People should determine their own destinies and affairs and only when it truly turns into massacres and the killing of innocents is intervention perhaps allowable.
Possum37: Your post made me think and think again. You have a wonderful unbiased perspective and insight into this matter which cannot but command my respect. I salute you
smile.gif
(I am however not getting involved in this debate any further as I stated before - I cannot possibly begin to understand the feelings of the US and British people about this)



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<center><FONT COLOR="blue">Him that I love, I wish to be free - even from me.</center></FONT c>

<FONT size="3"><center><FONT COLOR="red">À l'enfer avec amour!</FONT s></center></FONT c>
 
hmm.. yeah.. isolationism is what allowed Hitler to get so far in WW2. People in the US just finished fighting "The War that Ended all wars" and they see that 20 or so yrs down the road europe was fighting again.. they were tired and didn't want to interfere.. but then things got out of hand.. If Iraq were to have kept Kuwait.. they woulda gained 40% of the world's oil reserves.. If we ignored the invasion and bought oil from Iraq.. it woulda funded their military machine and who knows who they woulda invaded next trying to gain more oil wells which = money and money = power..

and why do i think we should keep Iraq under check.. because Saddamn has the capability and the will to use weapons of mass destruction.. i dunno about you guys but i don't want a backpack nuke exploding outside my house...


Edit:

I think a lot of americans are really naive because they haven't been exposed to any conflict frist hand in quite a while. Our country's security is the most lax compared to all of the Western European countries.. meaning.. it's easier to sneak in stuff (drugs, explosives, chemical weapons etc). The people that analyzed the report that came out were surprised that the US had so few acts of terrorism happen on it's own soil.. I don't know if you guys remember.. but in '95 or '96.. a bus load of Greek tourist were getting ready to leave the National Museum in Cairo, Egpyt.. in front of the museum was like a square.. i remember it looking like a tiny park.. Anyways.. i was across the square from the tour bus when I heard popping sounds.. the friends i was with grabbed me and ran for his car.. at that time i didnt realize what it was.. he told me he hearn gun fire and when i went home and turned on CNN I found out that the tour bus got shot up with a couple guys w/ AK-47's. What does this have to do with Iraq? What stops them from getting two guys visas and plane tickets into Miami or NYC and doing the same thing?

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WaterB
Aliensoup Mod

<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by WaterB on February 21, 2001 at 01:13 AM]</font>
 
I very much agree.
It's easy for Americans, with their isolated geographical position, to sit back and ignore the rest of the world. I bet the Chinese government supports that attitude all the way.

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One door closed is one door opened
One more memory fades away
Such grand dreams we all have chosen
We lost our innocence along the way
- Rose Bygrave, "Innocence"

PsychoticIckyThing.Com
 
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