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Buy.com Monitor Fiasco - Case Closed

Why thank you mucho Alien
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I bet there will be some actual substantiation forthcoming shortly regarding this issue of contracts.

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Regards,

Pyroxy

Is it time for another Tea Party? Hell YES it is!
 
First off, I am a third year law student currently in NY. I am responding to this thread to try and clear up some of the misconceptions and theories by providing the legal framework behind this issue and others similarly like it. I, in no way, wish to participate in this name calling and twisting of words, so please leave me out of it. If you want to discuss the legalities behind the issues, then I do not have a problem with that.

First off, the issue behind the buy.com fiasco and other situations similarly like it is the basic idea of a contract. In order to have a contract, these basic elements need to be present(U.C.C. § 2-204):

1) Offer (U.C.C. § 2-206(1)(a)) - This is basically one party making an offer to another which only needs acceptance of the offer for it to be a binding contract.
In the buy.com situation, it may appear as the goods on the web page at the stated price is the offer, but in fact it is not. The offer is actually the consumer placing the offer when they submit their desired order.

2) Acceptance (U.C.C. § 2-206(1)(b)) - This is an acceptance of the offer made by the other party as offered, modification to the acceptance would be considered a counter-offer and not an acceptance. An offeror, as master of the offer, may invite acceptance by conduct, and may propose limitations on the kind of conduct that constitutes acceptance. Therefor, the other party may accept by performing the acts the offeror proposes to treat as acceptance.

In the buy.com situation, when buy.com charged the consumer's credit card, this is considered an action of acceptance since they would not have done this action without intending to ship the goods.

3) Consideration (U.C.C. § 2-203) - This is really not an issue here or in most cases, but it basically means that there is some value given up by both parties. It does not have to be equal and does not have to only money, even though that is the case in 99% of the time.

To sum it up, buy.com's problem was when they charged customer's credit card before intending to ship the goods. Hence, the reasoning they dont follow this practice any longer.

As for their settlement, let me make a few points. First, they did not settled for almost $600k because they were good hearted people. They settled because if they went to court they might have been hit with fraud charges which allows a jury to award the plaintiffs Punitive damages which can me in the millions! They settled for this amount to avoid that and the settlement amount is basically the damages the plaintiffs would have won for breach of contract claims. In addition, they also had to change some of their methods of doing business (e.g. the charging of credit cards after the goods were shipped).

I hope this has helped somewhat even though it is just the basic framework that is associated with any contract. The issues can and are alot more complex, none of which I need to get into at the moment (hence the reason for lawyers, so they say
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. I pulled some of this information from the UCC code via Lexis (a paid service) and if more information is needed, I will try and provide it for you. I know Cornell provides some of this information for free via there web site, so if anyone wants more information, you can check that site out: http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/overview.html
(ok, this is the last time I am going to edit this and try to linktify this link!)
Please note: My statements in this message are personal opinions of which may have no basis whatsoever in fact.



<font color="#000000">[Edited by Gameboy on October 19, 2000 (edited 8 times)]</font>
 
I agree with Dan on this one. You have to look at the issue of pricing errors from both sides. The business is trying to make money to further itself and the consumer is trying to get things as cheap as possible. It's a game, really, so if you can get a good deal by these means, great. If the company doesn't allow it and refunds you, that's understandable, too.

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Does driving a car from Saturn make me an alien?
 
WTF does what baseball team I like have to do with anything?!? Stick to the point, instead of trying to insult me. It just makes you look like a petty idiot for being challenged and not having the answer.

lol.gif
, more name-calling &lt;shakes head&gt; You really do want intelligent discussion as long as it doesn't challenge your resident "Expert On Everything" status, eh?

I wasn't trying to insult you, just make a humorous point by trading a ridiculous statement for a ridiculous statement. I can see now that technique goes way over your head, and I'll refrain from it in the future.
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I never called you a liar.

Dan, you most certainly did by questioning the truthfullness of my statement. I suggest that you look up veracity in the dictionary. Now if you would have said, "I question the accuracy of that statement...", you would have come across as not calling me a liar, but possibly mistaken.

I said (if you would've paid attention) that I've seen that statement (about once they charge you that they enter into a contract) get thrown around so liberally on Anandtech with NOT ONE PERSON ever having taken the time to verify whether that's legally accurate. They just blindly accepted it as factual.

Dan, I paid close attention. Your words are still in the thread. You can do your own verification at the Cornell University Law site, Nexus, or any library. I'm not doing your research for you. "NOT ONE PERSON" does include you, my friend, or do you always expect everyone else to hand you everything?

I've seen that statement posted literally hundreds of times on Anandtech, and it just gets sucked up as truth by everyone who reads it, yet no one, to my knowledge, has ever shown a legal document that proves it.

Then how did the folks win the settlement? (rhetorical)

Learn to accept alternative opinions and don't blindly accept what you are presented. And don't be so quick to insult those that disagree with you. I know that takes some growing up on your part, but we have faith in you.

So, let me get this straight, you called me a liar, then proceeded to call me a petty idiot, and now you're lecturing me on alternative points of view. Dan, I've got to say that I'm LMAO at you. Are you always so quick to display the very same faults that you diagnose in others from your 5¢ Lucy Psychology Stand?

Ski Bum
 
, more name-calling &lt;shakes head&gt; You really do want intelligent discussion as long as it doesn't challenge your resident "Expert On Everything" status, eh?
Never claimed to have been an expert on everything, but since you consider me as such, I'm flattered. Thanks.
I do, however, go to the trouble of backing up my statements with facts and definitions. Instead of just telling someone that they are incorrect, I show them with irrefutable proof.
If I am proven to be wrong, I admit so. In my opinion, I have not been so far in this matter.

Dan, you most certainly did by questioning the truthfullness of my statement. I suggest that you look up veracity in the dictionary. Now if you would have said, "I question the accuracy of that statement...", you would have come across as not calling me a liar, but possibly mistaken.
Petty semantics.
From Websters:
ve·rac·i·ty (v-rs-t)
n., pl. ve·rac·i·ties.
1. Adherence to the truth; truthfulness. See Synonyms at truth.
2. Conformity to fact or truth; accuracy or precision: a report of doubtful veracity.
3. Something that is true.

So, thank you for pointing out that the word I chose was indeed used in the proper context. Your usage is synonymous, so it's completely redundant and doesn't serve any purpose whatsoever, other than to unsuccessfully attempt to confuse the issue.

Dan, I paid close attention. Your words are still in the thread. You can do your own verification at the Cornell University Law site, Nexus, or any library. I'm not doing your research for you. "NOT ONE PERSON" does include you, my friend, or do you always expect everyone else to hand you everything?
So, instead of adding something useful to the conversation by providing a link or something that can prove the statement one way or another, you simply pass along the same old line of "it's a law somewhere, I'm pretty sure". FWIW, I HAVE looked through Cornell's library, but have absolutely no intention of wasting my time trying to become versed in contract law to prove a point in an area where the matter is vague to begin with.
It's quite clear that this is a grey area in the legal sense.

Then how did the folks win the settlement? (rhetorical)
You may have posted this as a rhetorical question, but I'll give you an answer anyway, because it's relevant.
These people didn't win anything. It was a settlement on Buy.com's part. You don't *win* a settlement... that's why it's called a settlement.
And the reason it happened is because it made good financial sense for Buy.com to settle the matter out of court. By doing so, it helps to not only put the matter behind them, but also takes steps forward to clean up their reputation by attempting to appease those that feel they were wronged.

So, let me get this straight, you called me a liar, then proceeded to call me a petty idiot, and now you're lecturing me on alternative points of view. Dan, I've got to say that I'm LMAO at you. Are you always so quick to display the very same faults that you diagnose in others from your 5¢ Lucy Psychology Stand?
Again, I never called you a liar. You read something into my statements that was never there.
I did indeed doubt the accuracy (veracity) of your statement, but you also have not proved that it is indeed factual. Instead, you hid behind the premise that I wanted the explanation handed to me, and disguised the fact that your basis has not been verified.
Instead of having a reasonable and level-headed discussion, you resorted to insults and word manipulation. All you've done is try to cover up the fact that what you said has still not been proven to be legally accurate.
You said it: "Your words are still in the thread". I suggest you go back and look at them again.

Just grow up already. If you can't answer the question, don't waste our time by turning our words around. It just makes you look petty and ignorant.


Thanks for playing... please drive through.

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spidergoolash: "heh, a cup of diesel dan - mwahhha"
me: "heh, a cup of me is like a cup of heaven!"
 
Man Ski Bum chill out. Dan simply reacted to you insulting him. How was he to know that you were joking? there was no
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or hahaha after it. As far as I could see from first glance, you were simply insulting him and nothing funny involved.

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Now, back on the subject of this topic...I think they're entitled to mistakes. If they've caught it AFTER they've charged you, then give your money back. It's no big deal. It's not like you're losing money. You just didn't get the great deal you wanted.

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"No man can be condemed for owning a dog.
As long as he has a dog, he has a friend;
and the poorer he gets, the better friend he has."

- Will Rogers

<font color="#000000">[Edited by liltaz on October 18, 2000 (edited 1 time)]</font>
 
Gameboy&gt; THANK YOU for posting actual fact. See how compelling an argument can be with facts?

In response to some of your opinions:
I don't think it was ever assumed by anyone that Buy.com settled because they were "good people". Absolutely, it was likely that going to trial could've caused all kinds of nastiness, including possible charges of fraud, breach of contract, and other general "mud on their faces".

But I also wouldn't discount the PR aspect, either. Settling the issue gets the case out of court, and over and done with. Fraud charges probably wouldn't have affected those who were wronged (the customers), but ending the matter takes steps on the part of Buy.com to clean up their public image, which was significantly tarnished by this incident.

Further, it likely moves them a little closer to legitimacy, by basically admitting that "Yes, we didn't do this the right way, and we've changed our procedures to insure that this doesn't happen again."

This conveys to the public that they're accepting responsibility for their mistakes and fixing what was broken. Don't think that doesn't instill a significant level of consumer confidence for future customers.


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spidergoolash: "heh, a cup of diesel dan - mwahhha"
me: "heh, a cup of me is like a cup of heaven!"
 
The post below was reinstated by Alien.

DD:
I promise you that SkiBum KNEW well before he posted his comments regarding contracts that there was in fact a valid contract established once a company accepts payment. He did not have the resources available to provide you with the actual contract law.


Furthermore:

Diesel Dan wrote:
I do, however, go to the trouble of backing up my statements with facts and definitions. Instead of just telling someone that they are incorrect, I show them with irrefutable proof. If I am proven to be wrong, I admit so. In my opinion, I have not been so far in this matter.

Boy does this thread sure remind me of this 1: http://www.aliensoup.com/ubb/Forum33/HTML/000010.html
awhile back where I tried to sincerely provide facts, complete with citations supporting such and I became the target of a VERY aggressive personal attack by you.

I have known SkiBum for ~6-7 years now and I guarantee you he is 1 of the most honorable & flexible people you will ever meet. If you doubt me, I can probably incite the eqivalent of a mass-riot
soldier.gif
in this forum to back up his merit.

Statements like this really aren't needed or constructive, not every disagreement needs to come to such an extreme end. -Admin

Please, let's have peace now.
reddevil.gif
 
look guys enough of this.. pyroxy if you want to defend ski burn a private msg to DD would've more than sufficed. I left anandtech because of this.. i do not want to see this repeated here.

pyroxy your post has been deleted. I will cut and paste what you wrote in a private msg to you. You may send this to DD in a pvt msg or in the private mod rooms but not in here.

I will repeat this procedure for anyone that "flames" or "defends" DD... and yes.. even you Alien
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THANK YOU for posting actual fact. See how compelling an argument can be with facts?

Yes, I agree. You really cant make a well founded arguement without some facts to back up your arguement unless your a politician &lt;G&gt;

In response to some of your opinions:
I don't think it was ever assumed by anyone that Buy.com settled because they were "good people". Absolutely, it was likely that going to trial could've caused all kinds of nastiness, including possible charges of fraud, breach of contract, and other general "mud on their faces".

Yes, I agree with that. In addition, probably saved themselves a great deal of legal fees as well.

But I also wouldn't discount the PR aspect, either. Settling the issue gets the case out of court, and over and done with. Fraud charges probably wouldn't have affected those who were wronged (the customers), but ending the matter takes steps on the part of Buy.com to clean up their public image, which was significantly tarnished by this incident.

No, but fraud would have severely affected buy.com! In addition, if they were found to have been in breach of contract or were hit with fraud charges, any other case based on the same transaction or related facts could use the result of the previous case against buy.com!Therefore, it would have produced an avalanche of claims against them.

I think buy.com has learned a very important lesson from this and other previous lawsuits. They now appear to have things in order and hopefully wont run into this mess again.
 
i'm disturbed by this because others will think that they can do the same everytime someone screws up pricings.. frivolus lawsuits will sprout like weeds.. sure it's good for you lawyers but annoying for the rest of us
 
Originally posted by WaterB:
i'm disturbed by this because others will think that they can do the same everytime someone screws up pricings.. frivolus lawsuits will sprout like weeds.. sure it's good for you lawyers but annoying for the rest of us

WaterB,
If a company acted the way buy.com did in that situation, then they should be held accountable for their actions.
No company has the right to take thousand of orders, charge people's credit cards, then take months to give them their money back. That is not right and violates all kind of laws. In addition they kept the incorrect price up for a couple of days even though they knew it was wrong (this makes me wonder about their intentions and may explain the quick settlement).


Please note: My statements in this message are personal opinions of which may have no basis whatsoever in fact.

<font color="#000000">[Edited by Gameboy on October 20, 2000 (edited 1 time)]</font>
 
Originally posted by WaterB:
hehe.. i like how gameboy has a disclaimer at the end of his posts
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Well, after doing a 35 page paper on Defamation on the Internet, I decided not to leave any open doors when discussing issues concerning other individuals or corporations. Even the 1st Amendment will trump most defamation claims, its better not to leave them any breathing room to file a claim. Sorry to get so technical, but its the intense training at law school that makes you like this &lt;G&gt;
 
Thank you, Gameboy.

WaterB (I believe it was)...it was a lawsuit, I now understand, because they CHARGED FIRST and checked their screwups later. If they had realized their mistake and sent out an e-mail to all who ordered and not charged anyone' card, it would have been different...many net companies now don't charge until they've shipped the order.

----------------------------
"No man can be condemed for owning a dog.
As long as he has a dog, he has a friend;
and the poorer he gets, the better friend he has."

- Will Rogers
 
Originally posted by WaterB:
look guys enough of this.. pyroxy if you want to defend ski burn a private msg to DD would've more than sufficed. I left anandtech because of this.. i do not want to see this repeated here.

pyroxy your post has been deleted. I will cut and paste what you wrote in a private msg to you. You may send this to DD in a pvt msg or in the private mod rooms but not in here.

I will repeat this procedure for anyone that "flames" or "defends" DD... and yes.. even you Alien
smile.gif

You'll repeat no such thing.
supergrin.gif


Don't let me send out the dogs for you!

...I posted my feelings on this issue in Hanger 18, I'll let his post stand for now...


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Alien - Administrator / Owner
["Everything was true. God was an alien. Oz really is over the
rainbow. ...and Midian is where the monsters live." -Nightbreed]
 
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