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Can a good Muslim be a good American / Canadian?

poetrylover said:

This is not my opinion. I have yet to formulate one.

I guess I assumed that bashanything 's debate topics were to stimulate inteligent debate. Instead , I have been accused of being someone I am not and accused of having an opinion that I have never expressed.

So how is the weather in your hometown?
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Intelligent debate is always welcome here at BA, but if it's not your opinion, maybe indicate that in your post and ask for other's opinions as well.

I, for one believe in what the author says and I know that because of the muslim's die-hard beliefs, intolerance of others and the acceptance of violence toward others (which has been demonstrated throughout history and against Christians and Jews), Western society will eventually fall, as Rome fell to the barbarians. No amount of liberals singing "kumbaya" will change that.


It's cold here in NY ;)
 
It just came over wrong Poetrylover were not perfect here at BA, though sometimes I wish I was ;)

It's never fair to assume something about someone because it'll always come back and hit you in the face. Yes be cautionate as you would with anyone else, but to assume they are something they might never be is cruel, as they could possibly return that assumption.
 
That's weird - some one today at work had pretty much that same email they were sending around to all us cubicle rats about Muslims, and here it is on Bash Anything. It must be one of those stupid emails that get passed all around the world and back again.
 
Pretty much, they are slightly stupid for two reasons:

1. They are made up by people who are bored/do not know all the facts/know the facts but send them to the WRONG people

2. Many don't even bother reading them
 
They're probably part truth and part someone getting their HA-HAs to see who many people will read and believe them.
 
I've never cared for these emails.

Why?

Because I'll make my own decisions.
 
Not if you're a golfer!!!:toothy10:

The original post in this thread made me a bit uncomfortable - I didn't know how the respond to it, although it DOES appear to be a "junk" email passed along by someone unknowingly.
 
poetrylover said:
Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia.
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 1) Then neither can Christians, whose allegiance is to God first.
 2) Allah is not a lunar god. The fact that there are certain pagan symbols in Muslim faith doesn't make them pagans, anymore than celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ on the feast day of the pagan god Mithra (December 25th, which is definitely NOT the Lord's biblical birthdate) makes me a pagan.
3) The word "Allah" means "God" in Arabic. Jesus Christ spoke Aramaic, which is closely related to Arabic, and would have said "Allaha" when speaking about God. This isn't because Jesus was a Muslim, or worshiped a pagan deity; it's because that's how you say God in Aramaic.
Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)
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1) The Bible is worse: Exodus 23:32, Exodus 34:14, Deuteronomy 5:7, Deuteronomy 6:15; Deuteronomy 7:25, Deuteronomy 13:6-9, Deuteronomy 17:2-7, 2 Chronicles 15:13, Jeremiah 10:2, Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:23, and Romans 16:17 (courtesy of religioustolerance.org)

2) Here is the text of the Quranic passage mentioned:

2:256 THERE SHALL BE no coercion in matters of faith. Distinct has now become the right way from error: hence, he who rejects the powers of evilhttp://www.islamicity.com/Quransear...ts><dc>true</dc><tx>true</tx><al>true</al>&-# and believes in God has indeed taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way: for God is all-hearing, all-knowing.

Yes. Just like every other religion, the Muslims believe that they are right and everyone else is wrong. However, unlike many of the Biblical passages I listed above, this passage disallows religious coercion.

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).
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Not different from Christians, whose values also transcend American law.

Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.
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1) What is a "geographical allegiance" anyway? Why should geography be a basis for an allegiance?
2) Catholocism is based in Rome, and the Pope's ex cathedra word supercedes that of the government on moral issues. Does that make them bad Americans too?
3) Why does praying in the direction of one place necessarily suggest they do not love the place they live?
Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.:
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Hmm. No citation. Of course, the Bible says that and worse in some of the passages I mentioned above. Romans 16:17, for example.
Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America, the great Satan.
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1) Not true of all Mullahs. Certainly, America being the Great Satan isn't part of Islamic texts.
2) Not true of all Muslims. Like Christians, they often have independent thoughts. Shocking, isn't it?
Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).
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1) Do I need to go down the list of slavery, violence, animal sacrifice, genocide, polygamy, rape, cruelty and misogyny in the Bible? Do we need to talk about Jacob and Shechem? Do we need to go over the Midianites, of whom were slain every man and boy, and every woman who had touched a man, and whose female virgins became the Israelites forced wives? How about Lot, who let his two daughters be raped to death by a mob? Or the Abrahamic prophets, most of whom had multiple sexual partners (wives plus concubines)?

2) Here is the quoted passage of the Quran:

4:34 MEN SHALL take full care of women with the bounties which God has bestowed more abundantly on the former than on the latter, and with what they may spend out of their possessions. And the righteous women are the truly devout ones, who guard the intimacy which God has [ordained to be] guarded. And as for those women whose ill-will you have reason to fear, admonish them [first]; then leave them alone in bed; then beat them; and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek to harm them. Behold, God is indeed most high, great!

On this list of commandments, men are commanded to take care of women. As for punishing them, it says to first admonish them, then deny them sex, and only thereafter beat them. That's pretty bad by modern standards, but not any worse (and in some ways, much better) than the Bible.

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.
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The American Constitution is not based upon Biblical principles; it's based upon enlightenment humanist principles. I could quote Hamilton, Madison, Jefferson, Washington, Adams, and many, many others on this. The preamble to the Treaty of Tripoli, signed by Adams, is particularly clear on this. It's only time constraints that stop me from quote spamming right now.


Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and __expression.
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Then explain the toleration of Judaism in the holy lands prior to the crusades, and the following passages of the Quran: 2:59, 2:257, and 3:77.
Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.
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The fact that most Muslims live in dictatorships doesn't mean that Islam is inconsistent with democracy. Christianity existed for how long before the enlightenment? During the middle ages, the Islamic world was considerably more democratic than the Christian world, by virtually any metric. The despotism in that part of the world is not a result of Islam.


Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent names.
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1) Do I need to repeat the stuff before about violence and hate in the Bible?
2) God is described as loving in many, many places in the Quran.
3) Of the 99 names, many of them are close to or could be translated as "loving": The All Beneficent, The Most Merciful, The Peace and Blessing, The Guarantor, The Guardian, The Ever Forgiving, The Subtly Kind, The All Forgiving, The Grateful, The Preserver, The Nourisher, The Generous...I could go on for a while.
4) Of the 99 names, one of them actually IS Al-Wadood: the Loving.
5) "Under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954 during the height of anti-communism. It was a culture of fear, not the love of God, that fostered that decision.
Therefore after much study and deliberation....perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both "good" Muslims and good Americans.
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Having done anything more than the most basic research, one can immediately come to the conclusion that this is all horse manure.
The Muslim religion is the fastest growing religion per capita in the United States especially in the minority races!!!
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Okay, so the original author wants us to be racists as well as religiously intolerant. Check.

I'm responding to this because e-mail spam like this piece does indeed fool some people by confirming their prejudices and fears. It's veiled hate speech, it's anti-Christian, and it needs to stop.
 
Wow, extremely informative. Theological debate has never been my strong point when it comes to whose book is better, and I'm always appreciative of insight. Nice work Jatkins.
 
I'll see what I can dig up from some previous posts on this subject that are not just arguements.
 
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