E-Butts Helping Bar Venue A Little Bit So Far, And.....

[JoeChartreuse]

And again, ridiculous that they would ban them as being an addictive habit but still allow cigarettes. Most of the sites where they are sold will say that they can not promise that they are completely safe but feel they are cutting down on the chemicals that result from the burning of a cigarette. Also, you can get refills that are nothing more than vegetable glycerin, with no nicotine. For me, if a person is going to smoke, at least with these they can still choose to harm themselves while not taking me down with them. But I have always wondered if continual use would result in effects similar to those from chewing tobacco.

I can understand that they might want to regulate some of the overseas refills as rumors say they may contain bad additives. But it smells more like they are bowing to the tobacco industry in trying to ban them. I can see it ending up that only the cigarette companies are allowed to make the refills or something like that. But the FDA does have some jurisdiction over the dispensing of nicotine so they will probably win. A pharmacist I know makes the nicotine lollipops to help people quit smoking but he can't sell them without a doctor's prescription. The fact that they are compounded makes them different from just selling Nicorette, etc.

If they ban them, I hope they just ban some of the nicotine refills until they study them and still allow the devices to be sold. Boyfriend is now on months of not smoking and he uses a non-nicotine refill for his.

Ah yes. Could it be that all the levels of government have their hands in the cigarette taxation pie, but not so with E-butts, and are afraid of losing pocket filler??? Nah, that couldn't be it.....

 

[DJDK]

Not only is the fact that they are untested in the sense of what are the effects of long term use, but also the fact that some of the E-Butts put the nicotine levels in the hands of the consumers. Every time that I think about that makes me think of the movie 'Thank-You for Smoking' where they abduct the dude and cover him in nicotine patches. I actually do know someone who has made himself sick because he was smoking his E-Butt more than regular smokes and got a mild nicotine overdose. Being someone who has been trying to quit smoking for the past two years (best yet is 4 months) I have looked into these as an option. My smoking is used as a way to get a break at work from all of the stupid b/s that comes with having teenage employees (my boyfriend ignored me today....and so on).

This also brings up the same argument as to why the government doesn't legalize marijuana. The honest answer to that is that the government makes too much money off of it now then what they would should they legalize it. Also now, as was the original argument, it would almost completely destroy the logging industry as there would be almost no need for wood pulp to make paper as hemp paper is high quality and significantly cheaper to produce.

 

[c. staley]

Even as a smoker, If the government had any teeth they would ban all tobacco. It's no good for anyone. Oh but wait, they're to busy spending the tax money from it.

Yep... and that same is true with smoking ban here... the ONLY place you are allowed to smoke indoors is a casino. And that's because the casino pays 18% off-the-top tax to the state.

They don't want to lose the tax money to the casinos in Canada - just a 5 minute drive away.

 

[JoeChartreuse]

Yep... and that same is true with smoking ban here... the ONLY place you are allowed to smoke indoors is a casino. And that's because the casino pays 18% off-the-top tax to the state.

They don't want to lose the tax money to the casinos in Canada - just a 5 minute drive away.

Oh gee, if you're goin' there: The ban in NJ is actually completely illegal, as the NJ Supreme Court ruled that the only PUBLIC buildings are those paid for by tax dollars for public use, like a municipal building, public library, etc... Bars are considered PRIVATE PROPERTY, just like your home.

Thing is, the only folks with the money to fight the state are in Atlantic City- the casinos. Of course, the corrupt Governor ( and I would gladly go to court if he wishes to dispute the description, since bribery is a form of corruption) at the time - Corzine- BRIBED the casinos by giving them free rein on smoking. The standing joke is that smoking is limited to 25% of the casino floor. However, that 25% IS UNDEFINED- no special section required.

My problem with this, of course, is that this caused so many venues to either go out of business, or sell short.

I always got a kick out of all the non-smokers who got their agenda filled. " Gee, if the bars were non-smoking I would be out all of the time.." Horse-hockey. Didn't happen. People who go to bars do, those who don't-don't.

The warm weather climates didn't take much of a hit, of course. Us 4 season folks did, however. Who wants to get off the stool, spend a few minutes bundling up, go out and freeze, come back in, de-bundle, and do it again 20 minutes later?

Add to that lost sales. If smokers go out twice an hour, that's about 20 minutes. In other words, 30% of the time that would normally be spent eating and drinking is lost.

Yes, as new kids hit 21, it may possibly rebuild. But in NJ, where the ban started in 2006, we still have a LONG WAY to go before we are back to where we were.

 

[possumdog]

I had a surge of going to bars when I first turned 21 but had to quit as the smoke and I didn't get along. 30 years later, when the state went non-smoking, I started going out several nights a week. When we moved to a smoking state, it was give up karaoke or try to endure the smoke. But we had to quit going out in the winter as the buildup of smoke in a bar with the doors kept closed bothered even my then-smoking boyfriend. Returned to karaoke when the doors could be opened.

Now we are held hostage to it if we want to make a living and both have not stopped coughing for months. We will have an interesting experiment coming up when one of our venues voluntarily goes non-smoking--the owner (who doesn't smoke) was recently diagnosed with COPD so she has taken out a food permit which will mean no more smoking in the bar. Will let you know how that goes.

 

[Bazza]

I always got a kick out of all the non-smokers who got their agenda filled. " Gee, if the bars were non-smoking I would be out all of the time.." Horse-hockey. Didn't happen. People who go to bars do, those who don't-don't. The warm weather climates didn't take much of a hit, of course. Us 4 season folks did, however. Who wants to get off the stool, spend a few minutes bundling up, go out and freeze, come back in, de-bundle, and do it again 20 minutes later? Add to that lost sales. If smokers go out twice an hour, that's about 20 minutes. In other words, 30% of the time that would normally be spent eating and drinking is lost.

I say BS to this. Are you really claiming that people having to go outside is directly resulting in lost revenue? So. Smokers are drinking less, simply because they have to go outside once an hour?! Or less smokers will go to a bar because they have to go outside? No way.

This is like claiming the distance to the bathroom affects food/drink sales. After all, if you have to walk further to pee, that's longer you are away from the bar, hence lost sales. LMAO!

You said it at the beginning. People who go to bars, go to bars. People who drink, drink. Whether or not they can smoke inside doesn't change ANY of that.

 

[Thunder Hag]

Well I can say from experience that bars that allow smoking seem to be more packed out, and bars/restaurants that have to have you go outside to smoke usually end up with a congregation outside. When they are outside they miss thier cues to come to the stage. Other than that, they draw less smokers because of the fact they have to go outside. When I work in bars that allow smoking my rotation is larger, plus they stay longer and drink more.

Just my observation

 

[Bazza]

Well I can say from experience that bars that allow smoking seem to be more packed out, and bars/restaurants that have to have you go outside to smoke usually end up with a congregation outside. When they are outside they miss thier cues to come to the stage. Other than that, they draw less smokers because of the fact they have to go outside. When I work in bars that allow smoking my rotation is larger, plus they stay longer and drink more.

Just my observation

Well if you live in state where it is optional, sure. I can see that happening.

But Joe is talking about NJ...a state where ALL the bars are non-smoking.

 

[JoeChartreuse]

I say BS to this. Are you really claiming that people having to go outside is directly resulting in lost revenue? So. Smokers are drinking less, simply because they have to go outside once an hour?! Or less smokers will go to a bar because they have to go outside? No way.

You said it at the beginning. People who go to bars, go to bars. People who drink, drink. Whether or not they can smoke inside doesn't change ANY of that.

As an ex- owner, YOU BET I'm saying that. Let's say that the prime time is from 8PM - 2AM. Average smokers fo out twice an hour for about ten minutes each time, or 20 minutes an hour. this means that they are outside for TWO HOURS of that prime time. If they are gone for two hours, how can they be spending money during that time? If they were inside all of that time they would be buying drinks. OF COURSE it makes a difference.

Now, YOU may spend 20 minutes an hour peeing, but most people don't, and there is no comparison to smoking.

 

[JoeChartreuse]

Well if you live in state where it is optional, sure. I can see that happening.

But Joe is talking about NJ...a state where ALL the bars are non-smoking.

Incorrect. Besides the casinos, where curruption and bribery keep smoking legal, there are "Cigar Bars" and others that have matched certain loopholes in the law. Locally, The Smoke Chophouse in Englewood, NJ and The Porterhouse in Montvale ( not the one in Northvale) NJ both have smoking in the bars. I gave the names so you can check this on line. Both are packed every night of the week, with or without entertainment.

 

[Bazza]

As an ex- owner, YOU BET I'm saying that. Let's say that the prime time is from 8PM - 2AM. Average smokers fo out twice an hour for about ten minutes each time, or 20 minutes an hour. this means that they are outside for TWO HOURS of that prime time. If they are gone for two hours, how can they be spending money during that time? If they were inside all of that time they would be buying drinks. OF COURSE it makes a difference.

Sorry, but your logic is flawed. You are directly equating time out smoking with lost revenue. The difference is people don't pay by the minute to sit at a bar. They buy a drink or two on average an hour and the rest of the time is spent consuming that beverage. Getting up to go smoke while your beer sits on the bar does not lose the bar any more money than if they didn't get up to go smoke. They are still buying the same amount of beverages. Up here, they even take those drinks OUT to smoke with them, resulting in zero consumption difference. If these were slot machines or video games or something that requires a steady stream of cash, then maybe leaving for 10 minutes would impact the till, but drinks are not purchased non-stop.

You sound like the bar owner I once knew that didn't want Karaoke because he "wanted people at the bar drinking and spending money, not off singing in the corner for free". Would you say Karaoke directly impacts a bars revenue negatively as well?

 

[possumdog]

Wonder how much revenue is lost to increased respiratory problems? We have quite a few out with colds. Last year, many of the smokers (including the bartendress and my boyfriend) ended up with pneumonia as a complication of what to others was a bad cough. Keeps them away longer. Some won't come back in for a long time after they are better as the smoke aggravates their cough and brings it back. One singer even died from it. Not making much revenue off of him now.

 

[Kevinper]

I love my coffee, but I'll bet its not such a good idea to smoke it.

I think that's a great idea. Wake up faster and get your smoke at the same time! Mocha Latte flavored, mmmmm.

Also, you would be surprised at how much I do not even pick up the e-cig anymore and inhale it.

 

[JoeChartreuse]

Sorry, but your logic is flawed. You are directly equating time out smoking with lost revenue. The difference is people don't pay by the minute to sit at a bar. They buy a drink or two on average an hour and the rest of the time is spent consuming that beverage. Getting up to go smoke while your beer sits on the bar does not lose the bar any more money than if they didn't get up to go smoke. They are still buying the same amount of beverages. Up here, they even take those drinks OUT to smoke with them, resulting in zero consumption difference. If these were slot machines or video games or something that requires a steady stream of cash, then maybe leaving for 10 minutes would impact the till, but drinks are not purchased non-stop.

You sound like the bar owner I once knew that didn't want Karaoke because he "wanted people at the bar drinking and spending money, not off singing in the corner for free". Would you say Karaoke directly impacts a bars revenue negatively as well?

Sorry, but as an ex OWNER, I know you are wrong. A person sitting at the bar for an hour will finish a drink or two and replace them. One outside for 2 hours will not, because a drink lasts that much longer. Period.

Unless you have owned a bar or two, you have no idea what the sales are...

 

[Bazza]

A person sitting at the bar for an hour will finish a drink or two and replace them. One outside for 2 hours will not, because a drink lasts that much longer. Period.

But Joe, people don't go outside for two hours to smoke. Period. They go out for 5-10 minutes, give or take. Making their smoking time cumulative just doesn't wash.

Using your theory, POOL TABLES & DART BOARDS would be the arch enemy of all bar owners and none would allow them in their establishment. After all, people spend FAR more time playing pool away from the bar (and often in another room entirely!) than smokers spend outside.

Do you believe POOL TABLES and/or DART BOARDS hurt bar revenue? Or is it the act of stepping out the front door that does something magical?

Unless you have owned a bar or two, you have no idea what the sales are...

I get it. You used to own a bar. :rolleyespill:

But I do know what sales are. I asked! None of the bar owners/managers I spoke to this week said that, today, the average smoker spends any less than the average non-smoker. Your assertion that smokers are spending less simply because they have to step outside occasionally to smoke simply isn't true. In fact one owner said he believed smokers spend MORE due to their habit.

 

[JoeChartreuse]

1) You are directly equating time out smoking with lost revenue. The difference is people don't pay by the minute to sit at a bar. They buy a drink or two on average an hour and the rest of the time is spent consuming that beverage.

2) but drinks are not purchased non-stop.

3) You sound like the bar owner I once knew that didn't want Karaoke because he "wanted people at the bar drinking and spending money, not off singing in the corner for free". Would you say Karaoke directly impacts a bars revenue negatively as well?

1) So that's 2-4 drinks that aren't purchased. I might add that is a low estimate in many places, especially those catering to younger patrons. I would estimate as high as 6 drinks lost over 2 hours , and as high as 8 (including shots) in a "baby bar".

In my area mixed drinks range from $5.50 to 8.50 per, shots equal or a dollar less, and beers $3-5.50 per.

2) Actually, they pretty much are. If bartender sees an empty glass, his first priority is getting it refilled. Most don't pass until they are done, and once in front of them, they continue to drink.

3) Since I'm a Karaoke Host, I assume this question was meant humorously.


I have/had to know this sort of thing to run the business successfully, so it was neccesary to study and analyze.

 

[Bazza]

1) So that's 2-4 drinks that aren't purchased. I might add that is a low estimate in many places, especially those catering to younger patrons. I would estimate as high as 6 drinks lost over 2 hours , and as high as 8 (including shots) in a "baby bar".

Huh? How do you make the jump from someone out smoking for 10 minutes to a 2-4 drink loss?

2) Actually, they pretty much are. If bartender sees an empty glass, his first priority is getting it refilled. Most don't pass until they are done, and once in front of them, they continue to drink.

Of course, but it doesnt happen by the clock. You are assuming that when someome is out smoking, they missed a pour or two that you won't get back, but this simply isn't true.

3) Since I'm a Karaoke Host, I assume this question was meant humorously.

Actually it was a serious question. When people are singing karaoke, they are away from the bar for 5-10 minutes an hour, completely occupied and not buying drinks. Exactly like a smoker. Do you believe Karaoke hurts the bar till as well?

I have/had to know this sort of thing to run the business successfully, so it was neccesary to study and analyze.

Then you must have also studied my pool table/dart question above. What were your findings?

 

[JoeChartreuse]

Huh? How do you make the jump from someone out smoking for 10 minutes to a 2-4 drink loss?

I didn't. I added up the 2 hour loss.



Of course, but it doesnt happen by the clock. You are assuming that when someome is out smoking, they missed a pour or two that you won't get back, but this simply isn't true.

We disagree, but I'm not assuming. Remember, it was how I made or didn't make money.


Actually it was a serious question. When people are singing karaoke, they are away from the bar for 5-10 minutes an hour, completely occupied and not buying drinks. Exactly like a smoker. Do you believe Karaoke hurts the bar till as well?

Nope, because they not only don't leave the bar, in many cases they set their drinks on a nearby table ( NOT MINE) to sip during instrumental interludes. You know that. Also, they are away from the bar only for the length of a song, most of which last about 3+ minutes. Karaoke can't hurt the bar because it brings in many more people, who drink. That's why I thought your question wasn't serious.




Then you must have also studied my pool table/dart question above. What were your findings?

No big study needed here. When playing pool or darts, their drinks are usually right there with them, steadily being consumed.

Please keep in mind that I PREFER working in a non-smoking establishment, and not having to strip when I walk into the house. I also need to do less cleaning and maintainance on my equipment. Healthier is good too!

I only have two gripes-

1) A lot of lost revenue ( you have no idea how many bars closed or were sold short here- and by closed, I mean gone.) The poor waitress that had to breathe second hand smoke - used as the poster example- is now breathing free and clear out on the street looking for work. The ban ( in NJ) has been in effect here for 5 years, and no matter what anyone thinks, the business hasn't come close to rebounding. That's 5 years of new 21 year olds- who normally drink more than us old folks- that haven't made it up yet.

2) The ban is illegal here in NJ, but was passed and continued through corruption and bribery.

 

[Paradigm Karaoke]

from what I am noticing in AZ, since the ban went into effect, people are actually spending MORE time outside than inside. but our cold is mid 50's so 2 or 3 propane heaters is all it takes to break that chill. it wasn't that way before the ban. and to make it worse, it's not just the singers, 1 or 2 singers at a table takes their entire crew outside with them and they stay there until it's their time to sing again, many nights there are more people outside than in. i am with Joe, i don't miss the stink when i got home and the crap buildup on the gear, and quite often, at least here, when i go outside to get them, they are sitting at a table with empty glasses and bottles.,...,...,..., (a few more commas for good measure :embarrassedpill

 

[Mantis1]

A customer is gonna drink as much as they are gonna drink ( til cut off).

Joe i can See why you THINK it means less $ to a bar, but you are WRONG!!!

It only means they are outside smoking taking a break from their drink. Just like when they take a leak. It's a momentary pause. Just like when they sing a song! OMG!!!! No more singing it is killing our sales !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Come on man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I smoked for 33 years. I drank MORE when i smoked and I smoked MORE when i drank!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your sense of reality gets more and more confusing to me every day.

Try to understand. Your version is not right 100% of the time and neither is mine. Can you not see this ? What are you so stubborn about what you believe???? It makes you look ...well, out of touch with reality!

Sorry man, you do it to yourself.