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Chris said:
I'm more worried about the gun enthusiast who may think that the results of this trial means they can shoot willy nilly and claim self defense regardless of the circumstances.
I am a gun owner and enthusiast. I would have to say I don't think that way. Though if someone broke into my house I would shoot them if need be.barbarap said:
There is a difference though most people would have waited for the police to arrive like instructed. The percentage I believe is small on those who would have not listened to the 911 dispatcher.
Chris said:
Chris, there are many responsible gun owners like yourself and I don't see those people as being a problem.
The person (and there are many of them out there) that carries a gun, looks for people they profile as being suspicious, then follows and stalks them and then, after creating a situation where there is a confrontation, uses that gun fatally, then justifies it with the claim of self defense..... Those are the people we need to worry about.
barbarap said:
There are many of everything out there if you would like to look at that way. There are many people who murdered with a gun obtained illegally. There are many sexual predators we don't know about. There are many murders that do it for fun. The world is full of problems and potential problems. We are never going to solve them all but there are less irresponsible people who own guns legally then there are that own guns that are illegal.
You can walk into my hometown of Philly where at one time I was a thug and get shot for looking at the person the wrong way. More then likely that person has a gun illegally.
Are there overzealous people like Zimmerman out there yes I can't disagree with you there. Though I think the number if far few then those that have guns and are true criminals.
Chris said:
Chris, you are right, there are bad people out there. That means we, as a society, should do all we can to change that. As good citizens, we are obligated to make things better in any capacity we are able to.
Just remember... Every illegal gun owed by a bad guy, started out as a legal gun.
I work in a secure building. I have to have a card key to go from one work area to another, to use the stairway and the elevator. We have private security guards and sheriffs stationed in critical areas. My building has a no weapons policy, I know this because there are signs at every entry which say, "No Weapons Allowed'
In the past nine months we have had six gun incidents in and around our building, two of which resulted in fatalities.
I'll admit, my views on guns may seem extreme, but, for good reason.
barbarap said:
We will never not have bad people in the world. We can try and fix the world and its evils but we will never make any gain on it. For every bad and evil person you take away there are 10 more in his/her place.
You are correct and I will not disagree with you. Though you must also keep in mind it is not the gun that decides to use itself it is the person standing behind the guns decision to use it. You will never be able to end that mentality in certain people.
You also must remember most of those guns that are now illegal were gained through being stolen from a legal owner. So that is not the fault of the person who owned that gun legally.
People make me laugh when then say guns kill people. No in reality it is not the gun that killed the person it was the decision of the person behind the gun that killed the person. The gun was the tool. There are many other tools people can use to kill someone other then a gun so we should blame those objects for killing people.
We can't change the mentality of all those people who want to hurt others and we never will. Though I won't let my right to defend myself and my family be infringed because people can't figure that out. The world is not a very pleasant place the sooner everyone realizes that then maybe they will understand why gun owners get upset when they want to punish us.
Chris, regarding the age old argument that guns don't kill people, people kill people....
Consider this: guns are manufactured for the sole purpose of killing or maiming other living things. If used properly, that is exactly what they do.... Kill and maim other living things.
I think there are situations where having a gun is appropriate, however, I don't believe that every Dirty Harry wanna be should be armed to the hilt.
Another thing I wanted to address regarding your previous posts.... While we both agree there will always be bad people out there, that doesn't mean we should just accept that and let those bad people be. As good citizens of our country, we are obligated to do everything we can to improve our communities.
Consider this: guns are manufactured for the sole purpose of killing or maiming other living things. If used properly, that is exactly what they do.... Kill and maim other living things.
I think there are situations where having a gun is appropriate, however, I don't believe that every Dirty Harry wanna be should be armed to the hilt.
Another thing I wanted to address regarding your previous posts.... While we both agree there will always be bad people out there, that doesn't mean we should just accept that and let those bad people be. As good citizens of our country, we are obligated to do everything we can to improve our communities.
One thing I forgot to say.... You state it is not the fault of legal gun owners when those legal guns end up in the hands of the bad guys.
I respectfully disagree to a point. While the bad guys bear the brunt of the responsibility for obtaining the gun illegally, the responsible gun owner also has a responsibility to make sure that weapon does not end up in the wrong hands.
I respectfully disagree to a point. While the bad guys bear the brunt of the responsibility for obtaining the gun illegally, the responsible gun owner also has a responsibility to make sure that weapon does not end up in the wrong hands.
barbarap said:
I will agree to you to an extent on that. I will agree if the owner has the gun out in the open where it can be easily found yes. Though did the legal gun owner chose to have his house robbed? I do believe gun owner should lock up their guns yes but that is no guarantee that they will not be stolen. I have a gun safe in my house I can't guarantee someone won't steal it and get it open. So it would be far from my fault if someone obtained my gun.
I have had the pleasure of living on both sides of the law. When I did the thing I did when I was young I would make sure I took everything.
As a responsible gun owner I can't guarantee 100 percent that my gun won't end up in the wrong hands. That is impossible to do. That is like a person trying to guarantee they won't die tomorrow most likely it won't happen but there is a chance it can.
Though then you have the media and several papers down here have done it where they published the legal owners of firearms, names and addresses. So then if my gun would be stolen that would be far from my fault because the media put a target on my house.
There are no guarantees in life that I can say.
Chris, I think we have found some middle ground here.
I see your point that a responsible gun owner might take every precaution and still lose their weapon to a bad guy. At the same time, I also believe that gun owners need to take every precaution possible....
Now, this brings up another point. Lets say Mr. Responsible Gun Owner, who has guns for self protection, has taken precautions with his weapons. He has the guns locked up and the ammunition stored in a separate place.
He is sleeping in the middle of the night and wakes up to find a man wearing a ski mask in his bedroom. ....
At this point, does Mr. Responsible Gun Owner say, "excuse me, but, I have to go unlock my gun and get my ammunition and load my gun, would mind taking a coffee break while I get ready to defend myself" ?
I see your point that a responsible gun owner might take every precaution and still lose their weapon to a bad guy. At the same time, I also believe that gun owners need to take every precaution possible....
Now, this brings up another point. Lets say Mr. Responsible Gun Owner, who has guns for self protection, has taken precautions with his weapons. He has the guns locked up and the ammunition stored in a separate place.
He is sleeping in the middle of the night and wakes up to find a man wearing a ski mask in his bedroom. ....
At this point, does Mr. Responsible Gun Owner say, "excuse me, but, I have to go unlock my gun and get my ammunition and load my gun, would mind taking a coffee break while I get ready to defend myself" ?
barbarap said:
I myself though I have more then one gun I take the gun I use out of the gun lock box when I go to sleep. I have a holster mounted under my bed where I put it. When I would go to work in the morning I would lock the gun back up. I never leave my gun out without me home.
Some of the gun owners I know do the same thing as I do.
Now on the flip side I will tell you that most people who break into a person's house don't do it when they are home. If they do they never go to the bedroom because they don't want to wake up the victims if need be. Now I keep my guns locked in my own room. That is not to say that is how everyone does it. I know a person who has their guns locked in their study which makes no sense to me.
Though I have been on both sides so I tend to think like they would so it makes it easier for me to know how to protect myself.
Chris said:
Ok, you keep your gun in your bedroom with you at night..... And you wake up to find mr. Ski mask in your bedroom. You are startled, it is dark, and you just woke up, you pull out your gun, and the bad guy wrestles it from you and uses it to hurt you and your family.
Not only does he hurt you and your family, but he takes you gun and now that legal gun is an illegal gun.
barbarap said:
It can happen but not likely. Plus if I woke up with a man in my bedroom I would not reach right for my gun. That is just stupid to give away your defense when in reality you are defenseless. More then likely if you find a man in your bedroom you are already subdued and won't have a chance to get a weapon. There are a few who would be stupid and not subdue you then you look for opportunity. It is not in the open where they can visibly see it.
I go from experience because I use to do this when I was younger so experience is on my side. Most people who rob house think the same way.
Also reason I have a dog that barks at everything. As soon as he goes and gets going which he does quite often I would know someone is in the house. There are defense people can put into place to buy them time. No burglar is going to break in through the bedroom that would be stupid unless you are so good that you can get in without waking anyone up.
See in any place I live I place defense to give me the time I need to make sure my family will be safe. Windows have portable alarms on then that go off when opened that is on top of a home alarm system.
I also have them to give the bad guy a chance to change his mind and take off. If he is still persistent then my last line of defense is my gun. So they can't say I did not give them a chance. Anyway they do my house I would be up in ample time to protect myself and my family.
Chris said:
So, lets see if I got this right.... You sleep with a gun in your room for self protection but if you woke up in the middle of the night and found an intruder in the room, you would not use your gun??
It seems to me that with a dog and alarm system, that would be plenty to discourage a burglar.
Something to think about;
http://smartgunlaws.org/guns-in-the-homesafe-storage-statistics/
barbarap said:
Oh no I would use my gun if those things did not deter them. Most of those things would deter but their are people that they would still keep going. I know because I use to do these things.
Statistics are far from accurate and are just as bias as politicians who spin bills to look good. I could go and find statistics that counter what your stats say more then likely. So I put little faith in them. I go by what I have seen and done in my life and know what desperate people will do. Desperate people are capable of doing bad things when they need something bad. The world is not a nice place and not all people can be trusted. I may feel otherwise had I lived a different life.barbarap said:After reading the arrival I linked, seems to me you and your family would be safer without a gun in the house. At least, that is what the statistics say.
