'Illegal' Immigration

J

jadedskies

Part Of The Furniture
PF Member
What is the US Government's policy on 'illegal' immigration (more specifically boatpeople), and what are your views?

Here, there's about 65% support for the government's policy of just throwing everyone who rocks up in crowded detention centres (due to a very successful propaganda campaign by the government), and about 35% support for assessing them on their merits, and letting some into the community.

What is even scarier, is that the Labor party (read Democrat) is even more hardline on this issue than our Liberal party (read Republican), who are already being condemned by the UN. Do you know Australia has even pulled out of the United Nations Convention Against Torture because they were getting criticised over their actions?

I think it's only a matter of time before our Immigration Minister and Prime Minister are found guilty of crimes against humanity by the UN.

But, back to my original question?
What does the US do? And what are your views?

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PsychoticIckyThing.Com
 
I can't quote the exact US policy, but living in south Florida we hear a lot about "boatpeople." Basically, if a person makes it onto land before being picked up by the INS, they can stay. They have to spend time in a detention center, but are then able to remain. If the INS gets them before they make it to land, it's back to their origin.
I have really mixed views on this. I certainly sympathize with people who are living someplace where their rights are trampled and lives are at risk. But then, where do we draw the line in the US regarding the population? We have our own problems of poverty, unemployment, human rights violations, and other issues. There are areas in south Florida where if you don't speak Spanish you are not wanted, welcome, or safe.

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I wander, therefore I roam.
I came, I saw, I conquered, I rule!
me !~the coke goddess~!
my son !~the Trumpet God~!
 
I think there should be a universal policy concerning this - that on arrival, they're detained, held for 60 days while their backgrounds are checked with Interpol and such databases, determine whether they're legitimate refugees or not, and if they pass both criteria, then let them in. That way you're letting those who deserve it in, keeping those who don't out, and so on.

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One door closed is one door opened
One more memory fades away
Such grand dreams we all have chosen
We lost our innocence along the way
- Rose Bygrave, "Innocence"

PsychoticIckyThing.Com
 
That's really a pretty good idea. And if it could be fairly monitored it might work well. Maybe it would help to cut down on some of the political garbage that goes on.

With tongue firmly in cheek, I nominate you for the Nobel Peace Prize.
wink.gif


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I wander, therefore I roam.
I came, I saw, I conquered, I rule!
me !~the coke goddess~!
my son !~the Trumpet God~!
 
I tend to shy away from "universal" policies... It's easy to chip away at a nation's autonomy -- it's far far harder to regain what you've lost after you realize you've lost it....

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monsieurjohn: we have 2 yaks on campus
KNSinatra: you lie.
monsieurjohn: no i don't. i don't know what they're doing here, but they're real.

En fuego, bebe.
 
*sigh*

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One door closed is one door opened
One more memory fades away
Such grand dreams we all have chosen
We lost our innocence along the way
- Rose Bygrave, "Innocence"

PsychoticIckyThing.Com
 
I do have to admit I find it annoying at the least that so many people come here and expect things to be done in Spanish, to accommodate them.

Here in Chicago, almost everything is in both English and Spanish, and it grates on me. If someone thinks that this is such a great place that they want to leave their homeland for it, they shouldn't be trying to turn it into their homeland.

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Love will tear us apart....again
 
Very well put Hermie. Really though, the point you make and the point I make are very closely connected. Our national identity is very dear to Americans (often its more an unconsious feeling rather than a overt sense of nationalism). We have a definitive ideology, and part of it entails wanting to maintian our own automomy, and not be blended and/or assimilated into a larger global whole. Its an undeniable facet of the American psyche, sorry PIT
wink.gif


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monsieurjohn: we have 2 yaks on campus
KNSinatra: you lie.
monsieurjohn: no i don't. i don't know what they're doing here, but they're real.

En fuego, bebe.

<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by KNSinatra on February 25, 2001 at 09:54 PM]</font>
 
I agree that they shouldn't be trying to turn it into a replica of their homeland.

This is what I love about Australia. The majority of people don't give a rats about protecting a 'national identity'. Our 'national identity' is largely based on multiculturalism and accepting people from places of oppression. Australia wouldn't be the same without it.

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One door closed is one door opened
One more memory fades away
Such grand dreams we all have chosen
We lost our innocence along the way
- Rose Bygrave, "Innocence"

PsychoticIckyThing.Com
 
Originally posted by PsychoticIckyThing:
Our 'national identity' is largely based on multiculturalism and accepting people from places of oppression. Australia wouldn't be the same without it.
Click to expand...

We *used* to say the same thing about the United States - it's sad that we've forgotten our roots (Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, and all that B.S.). Sometimes it's more convenient to say "America for Americans" and leave it at that.

God forbid people from other countries might want a chance to live in a land of freedom & opportunity. God forbid they want to maintain some link to their past as well.

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My knob tastes funny.
 
Originally posted by possum37:
We *used* to say the same thing about the United States - it's sad that we've forgotten our roots ... God forbid people from other countries might want a chance to live in a land of freedom & opportunity. God forbid they want to maintain some link to their past as well.
Click to expand...

OK, Poss. I do NOT have a problem with people from other countries coming to live here. I really don't. But they should prepare for it and be ready to assimilate themselves into OUR society, and NOT the other way around. If I moved to, say, Italy, I would spend some time beforehand learning Italian and learning as much as I could about Italian culture so I didn't make an **** of myself once I got there, and I would try to make the transition as easy as possible.

I don't care what country immigrants to the U.S. are from, but it seems to me that the biggest group who does NOT take those preparatory steps are from Mexico, Cuba, and other Latin American countries. As far as I'm concerned, they are welcome to come here and try to make a life for themselves, and I don't care what language they speak in their own homes, or with each other when they're out and about, but for them to expect everyone to do business with them in Spanish is outrageous.

I am NOT an isolationist, but I feel strongly that if people are THAT interested in coming to America and trying to get a piece of "The American Dream", they ought to prepare themselves for what will be required of them when they get here. That includes learning both the language AND the culture.



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Love will tear us apart....again
 
Hmm...yes and no.
I think as far as learning the culture they come into, that's a personal choice, but I feel they should at least learn the language (or make some attempt to).

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One door closed is one door opened
One more memory fades away
Such grand dreams we all have chosen
We lost our innocence along the way
- Rose Bygrave, "Innocence"

PsychoticIckyThing.Com
 
Interesting fact: the USA hasn't officially declared a national language.

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monsieurjohn: we have 2 yaks on campus
KNSinatra: you lie.
monsieurjohn: no i don't. i don't know what they're doing here, but they're real.

En fuego, bebe.
 
KNS didnt they try to declare one before but the supream court said that it would be unconstitutional or something like that. I dont know i just think i remember something like that.

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Mother Should I Trust The Government - Pink Floyd
 
Yes, there was a big push to have English declared our national language. I think some states have done so, but they tend to be states without a large influx of immigrants.
This is really a tough issue for me. I really feel badly for anyone attempting to escape persecution in their home country, while at the same time high numbers of immigrants have made things even more difficult for those born in the USA.
But I do have to agree with Hermie on the language aspect. Through my work I see people every day who are suffering due to their inability and/or unwillingness to learn the language. I would never dream of moving somewhere I was unable to communicate in the home language.
But I still like the idea of checking out the backgrounds of people who want to move to another country. I wish I was able to quote the numbers on crime in south Florida directly attributable to those who do not speak English.
As an aside...I stopped at Walgreen Drug Store this evening. A family (immigrants...and I won't identify their origin) was walking out. One of the children had a bag of candy and was ripping it open. Her father was throwing the ripped paper on the ground, having her do the same. There was a trash container two steps away. It's cultural, but some forms of culture need to be left at home.
*getting down off my soapbox now*

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I wander, therefore I roam.
I came, I saw, I conquered, I rule!
me !~the coke goddess~!
my son !~the Trumpet God~!
 
Originally posted by ladyserenity:
unwillingness to learn the language.
Click to expand...

You hit the nail on the head, Lady. This is not at all to allege that *all* immigrants are of this nature -- our country is what is it, and bears its proud diversity thanks to influxes of many peoples at different periods of time. But never has our nation witnessed this sort of *unwillingness* to embrace basic things and tenets (such as language) on the part of large masses of immigrants! I have seen polls, data, tabulated some of it myself of how unprecedented this sentiment is!!

It's astounding how the pride factor has dimished dramatically, and has been largely replaced by the now-widely-perceived "entitlement" factor -- that is, one's act of coming to this country is notioned as coming only to *benefit* from it's priviledges. Obligations end at that. Thus too often, any type of reciprocity and citizen responsbility is lost -- there is no semblance of any obligation to this country, nor efforts made to act as a incorporated citizen.

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monsieurjohn: we have 2 yaks on campus
KNSinatra: you lie.
monsieurjohn: no i don't. i don't know what they're doing here, but they're real.

En fuego, bebe.

<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by KNSinatra on February 27, 2001 at 12:09 AM]</font>
 
Then why not make it compulsory to say, take English classes for three months before attaining citizenship?

That way you're getting the best of both worlds.

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One door closed is one door opened
One more memory fades away
Such grand dreams we all have chosen
We lost our innocence along the way
- Rose Bygrave, "Innocence"

PsychoticIckyThing.Com
 
aha.... wouldn't that be *nice*...

*but*

how does one go about making incoming citizens compulsoraly (is that a word?) learn a language that's not even offically the language of the country itself...

food for thought.

Methinks we need some sensical, solid policy making first, and ASAP.

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monsieurjohn: we have 2 yaks on campus
KNSinatra: you lie.
monsieurjohn: no i don't. i don't know what they're doing here, but they're real.

En fuego, bebe.
 
Originally posted by ladyserenity:
As an aside...I stopped at Walgreen Drug Store this evening. A family (immigrants...and I won't identify their origin) was walking out. One of the children had a bag of candy and was ripping it open. Her father was throwing the ripped paper on the ground, having her do the same. There was a trash container two steps away. It's cultural, but some forms of culture need to be left at home.
Click to expand...

See, PIT, this is what I mean about people needing to learn American culture. I'm not saying they should totally renounce where they come from. For example, there are plenty of well-established Americans who speak only English, are very assimilated into the American culture, yet they have Irish heritage and insist on having a full Irish wake when someone in their family dies. Now who's going to deny them that? Nobody. And KNS, I bet your family has a lot of Italian traditions, but that doesn't make you any less American.


*wonders if having a staunchly conservative President might be good for something, since he's going to be around for 4 years anyway*


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Love will tear us apart....again
 
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