Questions about the Arizona Suits

[c. staley]

i am running 4 nights a week, just got a call from another bar owner who saw me at my first bar, and the owner there asked me to make copies of my SC & CB certs (did SC but just waiting for the physical CB cert to get through mail.) to put on the wall where i set up cause he loves the idea (he joined safe harbor on his own as well). after reading the cert itself, the other bar fired their KJ when he could not prove his 1:1 and they "want to be on the up and up" as she put it. so, it is actually starting to turn a bit more rosey. one bar , for 4 nights a week, excited and proud to post my certs and another hiring me because of my certs, and even at $150.00 a night, the avg is $75.00 - $100.00 so i am making more than most out here at least so i am considering that a bit rosey too. what do you know.......those useless certs are actually showing some worth.

So you are apparently attributing this upturn in business to what SC is doing and not your own talents/efforts?

and while we are at it....care to answer any of the questions posed to you? we have answered yours, some more than once.

the CIA killed JFK, then RFK, the moon landing was faked, 911 was a government plot, the manus want to ruin KJ's......

I've never implied that the manus want to ruin KJ's or anything above... Those are YOUR words.

 

[c. staley]

And don't forget the kick **** GEM series which I understand is doing very well.

And the jury is still out on whether that series is legal or illegal in the U.S. no matter what SC tells you at this time. We'll know for sure soon enough... I promise you'll be the 17th or so to know....

 

[Guest]

....and even at $150.00 a night, the avg is $75.00 - $100.00 so i am making more than most out here

Doesn't it strike you a little odd that a company should file a law suit against what is essentially an entry level bar worker making $150? Even if they could win a judgement - where on earth would the money to pay it come from?

On the other hand - KJs & DJs are known to throw their money or credit card at every new gadget and toy within the range of $100 - $5,000. So why not just harrass them en-mass into buying new disc sets that just happen to be (over) priced in that range?

We have yet to see a karaoke manufacturer win this trademark argument in court. We have of course, seen them sacked with million dollar judgements for trademark and copyright violations they tried to pawn off on us as legitimately authgorized U.S. retail product. We continue to watch them move their operations off-shore to skirt U.S intellectual property law. What part of this scam is it that blends so nicely with your moral code?

 

[Mantis1]

The part that takes out pirate scum. The enemy of my enemy maybe????

Nice blend if you ask me!!!!!!

They may not be, or have been 100%. Are you 100% proper in your life?

Being a large company only makes their scale larger, and makes them suffer more from the anti corp crap that is brainwashing this country! You are a "professional business man" you SHOULD understand that !

 

[Paradigm Karaoke]

So you are apparently attributing this upturn in business to what SC is doing and not your own talents/efforts?

not entirely. they fired a 2 year pirate KJ because they saw that i was playing by the rules and subsequently asked theirs to show that he was also playing by the rules and he could not produce his discs to back up his massive library. she originally came out to the bar to see what i was doing that a few regulars had told her of as they complained about her guy. seeing what the competition is doing and using some of those techniques to improve your own situation is a normal thing. apparently i am doing something right if other bar owners are coming to see what i am doing. the final straw was the cert. she could have easily had him model his show after mine, but he couldn't back up his library so became a liability to her business. i will call it an assist from the SC suits.



I've never implied that the manus want to ruin KJ's or anything above... Those are YOUR words.

you are right, my words. my attempt was to show that it sounds as if anything the manus say is purely for the sake of tricking someone into something. if they say it, it is a lie. if they do it, it is for a completely different reason. like what has been discussed in the voluntary audit forms.

lets get back to the question at hand, or any question you have been asked and never answered. what makes you more qualified and knowledgeable about IP law than several IP attorneys? i have answered every question you have thrown at me but you have as of yet to answer even one question. i am only asking for the same courtesy of not having my questions ignored that i have extended to you.

 

[Paradigm Karaoke]

Doesn't it strike you a little odd that a company should file a law suit against what is essentially an entry level bar worker making $150? Even if they could win a judgement - where on earth would the money to pay it come from?

On the other hand - KJs & DJs are known to throw their money or credit card at every new gadget and toy within the range of $100 - $5,000. So why not just harrass them en-mass into buying new disc sets that just happen to be (over) priced in that range?

We have yet to see a karaoke manufacturer win this trademark argument in court. We have of course, seen them sacked with million dollar judgements for trademark and copyright violations they tried to pawn off on us as legitimately authgorized U.S. retail product. We continue to watch them move their operations off-shore to skirt U.S intellectual property law. What part of this scam is it that blends so nicely with your moral code?

good point here, i do see the irony in it, please don't mistake that. where i see a difference is that the manus have admitted to it, and have paid for the infractions. what i see from the "anit-manu" side, for lack of a better term at the moment, is that the pirates are not to be expected to also pay for their infractions. SC & CB had to pay damages for the unauthorized use of someone elses property, let's even say it was willful. i feel the pirates should also have to pay damages for the willful unlawful use of someone elses property. as far as moving off-shore, only SC has AFAIK. CB & Stellar are still solidly here. value of the GEM series i guess is personal, as i see it, less than $0.80 per track sounds like a better deal than i can get even with Party Tyme so in my eyes, it is a pretty good value for the right customer. but that is all personal opinion. if you feel $0.80 per track is overpriced, thats ok, it was not made for you then. getting money from an entry level worker, they wont get a whole lot if they sued me, but they would get everything i own. i think that after a few pirates lose everything they own for willfully breaking the law that more and more people will think twice before trying to run stolen music and for those that still decide to do it, let them lose it all.

 

[Guest]

The part that takes out pirate scum. The enemy of my enemy maybe????

Why does "pirate scum" only stick in one direction for you?

On one side is defendents like CB already in default on a multi-million judgement - and on the other an anonymous "someone" who you think is pirate because he's $50 less than your paultry fee? You seriously see the company that has been faking it to all of us as just a little less than proper?

 

[c. staley]

you are right, my words. my attempt was to show that it sounds as if anything the manus say is purely for the sake of tricking someone into something. if they say it, it is a lie. if they do it, it is for a completely different reason. like what has been discussed in the voluntary audit forms.

lets get back to the question at hand, or any question you have been asked and never answered. what makes you more qualified and knowledgeable about IP law than several IP attorneys? i have answered every question you have thrown at me but you have as of yet to answer even one question. i am only asking for the same courtesy of not having my questions ignored that i have extended to you.

I have never alluded to being "more qualified or knowledgeable" about anything... once again this is your posturing and words not mine.

What are the other questions?

Keep in mind that currently moderators here have placed an infraction against me for posting a pdf file of CB's U.S. District Court judgment and injunction - terming it as "libelous" although nothing in the document(s) are untrue. It is apparent that answering anything at this time will achieve nothing more than an unwarranted ban as well.

I'm not refusing to answer, I'm simply restricted. Ask all you want via a PM if you like.

 

[Diafel]

The part that takes out pirate scum. The enemy of my enemy maybe????

Nice blend if you ask me!!!!!!

They may not be, or have been 100%. Are you 100% proper in your life?

Being a large company only makes their scale larger, and makes them suffer more from the anti corp crap that is brainwashing this country! You are a "professional business man" you SHOULD understand that !

Once again, two wrongs don't make a right!
Are you saying then, that it's OK for the manus to be found guilty of not obtaining proper licensing before selling their wares to unsuspecting KJs as long as they appear (and I emphasize the word "appear" because that's not at all what they are ACTUALLY doing) to be removing pirate KJ's from the scene?
Funny, you don't want to afford Chip a "pass" on his posts, yet you insist on a pass for the manus when it comes to this subject because it suits you to do so.
You can't have your cake and eat it, too.
Can we say "double standard"?

 

[Loneavenger]

Simply YES! They are manufacturers, Those issues are not your problem as the end user. Do not use petty arguments to discount that music is being stolen from these manufacturers and they are the ones that provided us with that we use as a tool to make money. Any legal issues they have AND ARE CURRENTLY WORKING OUT , will be taken care of and even if they weren't it is not our problem. You are legal in the eyes of the law and that is what matters, as opposed to those who STEAL music from these manufacturers, there is no argument in their favor. Move on

 

[c. staley]

Simply YES! They are manufacturers, Those issues are not your problem as the end user.

You are kidding right?

Do not use petty arguments to discount that music is being stolen from these manufacturers and they are the ones that provided us with that we use as a tool to make money.

No one has discounted that music hasn't been stolen nor has anyone argued that they are NOT (some) of the ones that provide some of the "tools." However, this is not a Catholic confessional where all your past sins are simply washed away.... These were not a "single mistake" on their part either, they were ongoing, knowingly and wilful and for some reason you're okay with that. If they hadn't been caught by the publishers, you'd still be using "unauthorized" music to make money wouldn't you?

Any legal issues they have AND ARE CURRENTLY WORKING OUT , will be taken care of and even if they weren't it is not our problem. You are legal in the eyes of the law and that is what matters, as opposed to those who STEAL music from these manufacturers, there is no argument in their favor. Move on

Maybe it's not YOUR problem.... I have a problem with it though... and neither one of us is "more right" than the other.

 

[Diafel]

Simply YES! They are manufacturers, Those issues are not your problem as the end user. Do not use petty arguments to discount that music is being stolen from these manufacturers and they are the ones that provided us with that we use as a tool to make money. Any legal issues they have AND ARE CURRENTLY WORKING OUT , will be taken care of and even if they weren't it is not our problem. You are legal in the eyes of the law and that is what matters, as opposed to those who STEAL music from these manufacturers, there is no argument in their favor. Move on

Who's arguing "in favor" of music thieves?
By your own words then, it should not matter to you that other KJs are breaking the law and stealing money. You are legal and that is what matters. Any legal issues they have AND ARE CURRENTLY WORKING OUT, will be taken care of and even if they weren't it is not our problem.
What of the music that was STOLEN from the publishers? That doesn't matter? It's STILL stolen music, no matter how you try and justify it. You have got to be kidding me.
Seems to me that that a thief is a thief is a thief. Doesn't matter what they stole or how much of it.
For example, should an accountant get a better break for stealing a corporations money than the two bit break and enter thief just because he's an accountant working for a large corporation?
Seriously, you amaze me.

 

[Guest]

Simply YES! They are manufacturers, Those issues are not your problem as the end user. Do not use petty arguments to discount that music is being stolen from these manufacturers and they are the ones that provided us with that we use as a tool to make money. Any legal issues they have AND ARE CURRENTLY WORKING OUT , will be taken care of and even if they weren't it is not our problem. You are legal in the eyes of the law and that is what matters, as opposed to those who STEAL music from these manufacturers, there is no argument in their favor. Move on

That's just ignorant.

Ex: In an effort to coerce audits CB has been hinting that KJs could be sued by the very Publisher's who have sued them (something that has never and will never happen.)

If you were to believe this scernario - then it stands that CB perpetrated a fraud on every legitimate KJ who bought a product they stole from the publishers. Chartbuster's claims against any KJ are then mute since it is all fruit of the posoin CB tree, and they alone assume liability to the publishers for the spread of unauthorized material. CB can not acquire standing on a product that was not licensed at the time of it's misappropriation. That right is reserved to the Publisgher, and the liability falls entirely upon CB.

I find that a far more egregious act then some joker with a hard drive working for free beers.

Those jokers are no threat to my well being. CB and SC however, are brandishing (legal) weapons and shaking down anyone they can find in the open. The KJ/DJ world would be far better served by kicking these bandits straight off their high horse. Instead, we have a collection of certificate wannabees and parrot KJ/DJ associations who want to ride on the parade float. .....coming soon I'm sure to reality tv.

It might be interesting to know how many of the parties named in these suits are not fully commercially insured - that is, without the powerful legal resources of an insurance carrier who could step in to defend them? Does it not serve the purpose to coerce a sale too specifically seek out targets that are cut off from competent legal resources? Is not the real "investigation" work being done here just sizing up the con-man's mark?

 

[Big Joe]

Simply YES! They are manufacturers, Those issues are not your problem as the end user. Do not use petty arguments to discount that music is being stolen from these manufacturers and they are the ones that provided us with that we use as a tool to make money. Any legal issues they have AND ARE CURRENTLY WORKING OUT , will be taken care of and even if they weren't it is not our problem. You are legal in the eyes of the law and that is what matters, as opposed to those who STEAL music from these manufacturers, there is no argument in their favor. Move on

It would appear that "those who STEAL music from these manufacturers" are just following the example set for them by the manufacturers themselves.

1. Aquire whatever music you need as cheaply as possible. Of course, free is always best.

2. Pay in full only if, and when you are caught with questionable music and faced with a lawsuit.

3. Carry on legally as if it never happened.

If one gets your seal of approval, why not the other?

 

[Loneavenger]

The point is you are so angry that these companies are taking actions to recoup their losses that you will do anything to try and make them look like some kind of evil entities. If you paid attention to the ongoing suits that Staley likes to dig up, they are Ongoing and have either been settled or in the process of so, Meaning if there was a wrongdoing against the publisher, they are trying to right the wrongs. Diversion tactics will not change the fact that you have no karaoke without the manufacturers. It doesn't matter how many ways you look at it, if you seriously believe that every manufacturer is doing something wrong or is a pirate, then what are you doing in a business where you are using their products. Like you said, it goes both ways. If they were as bad as you'd like to make people believe then they would no longer be in business, but alas, they must be doing something right with the publishers because they are still being approved to produce music. What a mystery if they're such pirates as you'd lead others to believe. :wubpill: Sorry for the attitude tonight but some of the ridiculous things i've been reading have gotten just that..ridiculous

 

[Diafel]

If they were as bad as you'd like to make people believe

Seriously, you have it wrong. Not trying to make them look bad. They can do that all on their own perfectly fine without my help.
What I AM against is people like you trying to whitewash them, pretend they've never done anything wrong, including stealing music themselves, and make them look angelic, when clearly, they aren't?

 

[Loneavenger]

Not the way it comes across. And what i have a problem with is those that have such a problem with them trying to find justice against those stealing from them.You can be against their methods, that is your decision, but shouldn't be an argument that they have the right to recover those losses. And using past suits, etc. to try and say that they have stolen music therefore have no right to recover their losses is completely absurd. That is what i find ridiculous.

 

[Big Joe]

Not the way it comes across. And what i have a problem with is those that have such a problem with them trying to find justice against those stealing from them.You can be against their methods, that is your decision, but shouldn't be an argument that they have the right to recover those losses. And using past suits, etc. to try and say that they have stolen music therefore have no right to recover their losses is completely absurd. That is what i find ridiculous.

Nobody here is stopping them from finding justice. The courts will ultimately be the one's to decide if the manufacturers past infractions impede thier ability to recover losses. I, for one, can't wait.

 

[Loneavenger]

See that's the problem in your arguments and my point exactly. Staley is arguing about these cases that were settled in 2006. That was 5 YEARS AGO. They are still in business and authorized to produce new tracks from the PUBLISHERS. Seems to me they must be doing something right in the eyes of the publishers.

 

[Diafel]

Not the way it comes across. And what i have a problem with is those that have such a problem with them trying to find justice against those stealing from them.You can be against their methods, that is your decision, but shouldn't be an argument that they have the right to recover those losses. And using past suits, etc. to try and say that they have stolen music therefore have no right to recover their losses is completely absurd. That is what i find ridiculous.

No one here has a problem with them getting justice for theft. They have a right to it. What they don't have a right to do is accuse KJs willy-nilly in order to squeeze money out of them, justified or not.
And they don't have a right to act all self-righteous and indignant about music theft committed against them when they are guilty of same.

Do the investigation PROPERLY, gather REAL EVIDENCE (seeing a logo on a screen is NOT evidence, sorry) sue the pirate to oblivion so he and others will see it as a REAL deterrent, and be done with it, but don't pretend to be angelic and have clean hands when you don't.