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Sound Choice Litigation - Worst Fears A Reality

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Also, Jon:

I said this:
while there are many markets where the number of shows may have actually grown (due to pirating) in the last few years. And you're likely to find smaller crowds at each show, on average, than would have been in attendance 10 years ago!

the man who you say I am in "agreement with" responded
I would disagree that piracy is the reason for the explosion of KJs. Ask any photographer or vidoegrapher if piracy is responsible for the downtuirn in their fields and you'll see it has a lot more to do with the low prices and the simplicity of modern technology that puts much power in the hands of the avaerage Joe party goer.

Now, clearly, I was addressing the number of shows growing in the last few years! Proformance responded by stating he would disagree that piracy is the reason for the explosion of KJ's

I never used the term explosion and the growth that I DID refer to was in the number of shows, not KJ's. I also stated, which would be somewhat in line with Proformances observations that it appears to me that the attendance per show is smaller than years ago. But keep in mind I never DECLARED THAT IS THE CASE. That is only my opinion without any scientific data to support it!

And the wisdom of speaking to Videographers and photographers about piracy in the karaoke industry simple escapes me. And with the reference to such people, Proformance stands on his erroneous statements regarding what I posted!

And coming from a large metropolitan area, Proformance seems to be ignorant of the role that Karaoke plays as an entertainment form in rural and smaller suburban areas. Like it or not, for many it is still entertainment and even if they can sit home and do it, they want to get out and go to karaoke.
 
Performance,

I am going to have to disagree with you (a alot) here!

Those who were "first in" on the karaoke fad should also have been smart enough to be "first out" when it became clear where this novelty was ultimately destined to settle. There is a very good reason manufacturers like Matsu****a (JVC, Panasonic) and Pioneer, Sony, etc. all got out of manufacturing karaoke products and media.

While many still consider Karaoke a novelty, it is far from it. if anything over the years it has become a lot more popular than it was in the past. I have shows that still get 30 to 40 different singers on the list before I get through the first round!


I would disagree that piracy is the reason for the explosion of KJs. Ask any photographer or vidoegrapher if piracy is responsible for the downtuirn in their fields and you'll see it has a lot more to do with the low prices and the simplicity of modern technology that puts much power in the hands of the avaerage Joe party goer.

Yes technology does have some effect on the number of KJs but not nearly the effect that having $100,000+ dollars worth of music available for $150 or $200 does!


Not true. The cost of labor in a mulit-op so dwarfs the cost music or karaoke content that your perception is upside down. It is harder for a mulit-op, - even a flagrant pirate - than it is for an efficient, more flexible, and carefully staged single-op.

Wrong again (being a small multi-op) Labor cost are actually insignificant compared to equipment and music cost, To maintain Music and equipment for more than one (legal) system means purchasing that music for each system. for me that comes out to about $300 a month for Karoke and DJ music. While labor doesn't really cost me anything since I pay by the job, the KJ or DJ gets half and I retain half.

However most pirate multi-op companies pay their KJs maybe $10 an hour or $50 to $70 an night and receive the rest as pure profit since they have no outlay other than the gear.



Of course it does. The lower the threshold the easier it is to find a substitute for your services. Accounting has a high threshold because you can't practice commercially without a proven certifed skill set. Any Joe blow can be a KJ and it doesn't even require a high school diploma.

Again you are worng (to an extent) While yes any Joe Blow can be a KJ, very few are actually successful at it because they don't have the skills and savy that it takes to be a GOOD KJ. There certainly is a skill set required to do the job right!



You are contradicting your own observations regarding "Guitar Hero" which is the ultimate instant coffee version of karaoke. Carefully brewed karaoke shows will continue to exist, but by and large the value of karaoke has seriously declined and it has very little to do with the piracy that's going on. People need think long and hard before committing serious money to a such a baseline low-threshold product.

And again you are wrong, Karaoke alone brings in $1200+ for me each week. Before Piracy was possible, I was doing that in two days!

So acroos the board from my own experience I can say you are wrong. I bet several more will say the same thing!:sqwink:
 
Eric,

Your personal business issues will not be affected in any meaningful way by eliminating karaoke piracy.

It takes money to make money.
Karaoke media is relatively cheap.
If an operator can't afford the media while managing their other expenses then they are already at a disadvantage far beyond the reach of any anti-piracy campaign.

You are also assuming people are pirates simply because they run a lot of shows.
If there's someone out there with 35 weekly karaoke shows then the cost of their media is pretty far down the list of things that differentiate them from a single-op.

I've previously managed multi-ops with as many as 35 shows in a single weekend. It takes as few as only 9 music libraries to accomplish. If the events are stretched across the entire week it requires as few as only 6 collections.

I'm a single op and even I own 6 legitmate collections. It's not much of a hurdle.

Furthermore, 35 separate weekly karaoke shows at lounges in the same metro area would not survive. To succeed at that level requires a large region that would extend far beyond the area you are likely to want to serve.
As a generalization, everyone of your premises is flawed. As a generalization!

Let's start with the understanding that I am IN FACT in a major metropolitan area: Miami-dade/Broward (Ft Lauderdale)/Palm Beach Counties! And the 35 shows I mentioned all take place in Miami-dade and all of the shows are NOT in "lounges"!

And as a fact:
I know several comuterized multi-riggers and everyone that I am familiar with IS a pirate. And that is how it is in MY world regardless of how it is in your sphere of reference.

One guy who truly believed that he was legal, purchased four loaded CAVS systems. He told me he purchased 4 of them in order to have the same equipment and library on each rig. During that period of time I was researching karaoke as a retirement job and I discussed his CAVS experience extensively with him! It was then that I started to get an inkling that CAVS was not really legal. And when a retailer offered to throw in the entire MM library if I bought a CAVS from him I knew to avoid CAVS! So the guy could have purchased one library and triplicated it without being an more illegal than he actually is! And he had an amazing library comprised primarily of SC and PH. It was quite tempting to me, particularly because of the reasonable cost and the avowals that it is a legal system!

And even before computers facilitated piracy, the few disc shows that had multiple jobs on any given night used duplicate copies of their discs. How do I know? I saw the physical discs, and I saw the "confetti/artifacts" on the screen that they produced.

And you'll never prove to me that purchasing an additional library is the least of an independent operators financial concerns! It is a larger investment than the equipment and useless if you fail. If nothing else, who would invest in an additional library without having some work lined up ahead of time?

Meanwhile, if a pirate buys another rig, and dups his library, he has two complete rigs! He pays for the equipment and gets the library for free. And if it takes awhile to get another show, so be it. An extra rig is always good to have and with their credentials, the pirate WILL always find additional shows. There isn't one venue interested in doing karaoke that isn't impressed with the sales presentation, including references, that a multi-rigger provides. And this is where and how I am most impacted!

Having already stated the local reality is that the multiriggers were facilitated primarily though piracy, let me also mention that generally speaking, they have the worst equipment. One multi-rigger uses one speaker, can't play customer discs and trains many who lack the competence to run the shows. And in the process the "cream rises to the top" and they end up with some decent KJ's

Now, this is most important, their new shows fail much more frequently than they succeed. But consider their formula. They approach many venues with the equivalent strategy of using "spam". They mislead and deceive. 5 venues take them up on their proposal. Within 2-3 months 3 of those jobs are gone, while 2 stick. And the process repeats itself! Now that is a business model that works and the success of it proves just that!

While I work alone, I own enough equipment to have the equivalent of three "rigs". I use whichever rig I feel is most appropriate for the particular venue! I have no intention at this time to spend money on another library. And it's not just the cost of purchasing the library, I can buy 5 libraries if I'd like, it's the 100's of hours required to update my computer for the (each) new library, maintaining separate and distinct files for each distinct library and printing up a different set of books for each that can never be substituted for the library on another rig.

My local pirates, on the other hand, have no significant data to input in order to add a new rig/library. And interestingly, most don't even bother printing up books. They "comfort" their audience with the announcement that "they have every track ever made, so just ask for what you want"!

And, frankly, Proformance, I don't know what to make of your owning 6 libraries. The question in my mind is not "how" but "why"?

Lastly, I am perplexed to hear that you managed 35 shows and have no knowledge of the economies of scale that were afforded to you. For example, if you managed 35 shows the cost of having you do that didn't change if the shows dropped down to 30 or increased to 40. And the cost of the extra hosts were, I hope, covered by the fees from each new engagement! And any effort to increase an email list of followers is only facilitated as the number of shows you attend grows. And the cost/time to send out email blasts doesn't increase that much every time you increase the list!
 
Thunder said:
Labor costs are actually insignificant compared to equipment and music cost, To maintain Music and equipment for more than one (legal) system means purchasing that music for each system. for me that comes out to about $300 a month for Karoke and DJ music. While labor doesn't really cost me anything since I pay by the job, the KJ or DJ gets half and I retain half.

LOL. You just said the DJ takes HALF, and the way I do math that's 50% of your gross revenue and rather significant.

I assume you only buy the gear once and then use it many times? ...as opposed to the employee who gets paid each and every time he works? Now the cost of that labor is gigantic next to the amortized cost of the gear and music.

Suspend your belief. In light of your willingness to ignore HALF of your gross revenue - does it not seem possible that you are losing sight of the bigger picture in order to rationalize an unnecessary resentment regarding piracy?

Don't forget, the pirate still has every other cost associated with getting the business that you do sans the music - and it can easily be shown mathematically how insignificant that one cost really is.

You're spending figures are also subjective; meaning you haven't accounted for waste or duplication. It is quite possible that someone with exactly your same profile could be doing the same thing with lower expesnes due to better efficiency and higher discrimination.
 
As a generalization, everyone of your premises is flawed. As a generalization!

That may very well be.

To me, the shear volume of your anecdotal posts suggest you are running circles aorund yourself to justify something you can't quite pin down. I think you'd gain a lot by taking a step back and considering the possibility that you are chasing a ghost that isn't haunting you.

The other guy's problems remain his own.
 
LOL. You just said the DJ takes HALF, and the way I do math that's 50% of your gross revenue and rather significant.

I assume you only buy the gear once and then use it many times? ...as opposed to the employee who gets paid each and every time he works? Now the cost of that labor is gigantic next to the amortized cost of the gear and music.

Suspend your belief. In light of your willingness to ignore HALF of your gross revenue - does it not seem possible that you are losing sight of the bigger picture in order to rationalize an unnecessary resentment regarding piracy?

Don't forget, the pirate still has every other cost associated with getting the business that you do sans the music - and it can easily be shown mathematically how insignificant that one cost really is. Granted when shows were booking for $400 to $600 for the night the profit margin was a lot higher but then the "supply" of KJs was a lot less back then!

You're spending figures are also subjective; meaning you haven't accounted for waste or duplication. It is quite possible that someone with exactly your same profile could be doing the same thing with lower expesnes due to better efficiency and higher discrimination.

Again you are wrong and not looking at it logically!

When I send someone to cover a KJ gig I make 100% profit minus my expenses for music and gear upkeep, since the KJ isn't costing me anything the "half" I get goes entirely back into my company. The Pirate multi-op who is doing gigs for $75 to $125 a night and then paying his KJ another $50 to $75 for the night doesn't turn a lot of profit. Since I don't book any weekly gigs for less than $250 my take is a minimum of $125 for each night so my profit is still higher than the pirate except for the fact that I have to pay for my music.

Since the KJ is getting his/her take directly from the venue and my $125 is from rental on the gear my gross revenue is $125 and I am getting it all!

Granted back when there was a lot less "supply" of cheap KJs and shows were paying $400 to $600 the profit margin was a lot higher per show!
 
Slep-Tone Lies

As of Friday, Dec 4, Slep-Tone/Sound Choice has actually fied suit against 4 or 5 of the named respondents of it's original NC filing (Fed 4th Cir. Western NC Charlotte Div 3:09cv418)

I know two of the respondents, both had contacted SC's lawyers and 1) wanted to buy the libraries as offered in the cover letter (i.e. $6500/rig) or 2) were not the actual person observed as detailed in the complaint (and had agreed to having his system audited!)

I discovered this tonight perusing the Court documents online that the filing was amended on 12/04/09 with the 5 respondents that apparently would not turncoat and reveal their sources.

One of the respondents talked to ST/SC's lawyers on 10/25/09 and was told that she would be contacted about the offered settlement. They lied; they never contacted her to arrange for the settlement. [As of this writing she has not received notice of the friday filing.]

Noteable by their absence are one operator that I know has been providing information to the case, and another that I suspect has been cooperating.

My surmise in part of this situation that they relied on information from a website (no longer up) that listed the wrong information for one of the operators in question.

I'll keep y'all posted as things develop.
 
So how do you know they lied about contacting her with the offered settlement?

If she hasn't received notice of the filing she could yet be contacted with an offer to settle. But the truth maybe that she isn't even on the list! Yet!

Apparently, the effort by Sound Choice has already paid off in N.C. as 1 out of bunch has already agreed to settled! One will have his/her library audited and will not be bothered again and 5 more will settle before it is over!

Sounds to me like a plan that is coming together!
 
As of Friday, Dec 4, Slep-Tone/Sound Choice has actually fied suit against 4 or 5 of the named respondents of it's original NC filing (Fed 4th Cir. Western NC Charlotte Div 3:09cv418)

I know two of the respondents, both had contacted SC's lawyers and 1) wanted to buy the libraries as offered in the cover letter (i.e. $6500/rig) or 2) were not the actual person observed as detailed in the complaint (and had agreed to having his system audited!)

A) I discovered this tonight perusing the Court documents online that the filing was amended on 12/04/09 with the 5 respondents that apparently would not turncoat and reveal their sources.

B) One of the respondents talked to ST/SC's lawyers on 10/25/09 and was told that she would be contacted about the offered settlement. They lied; they never contacted her to arrange for the settlement. [As of this writing she has not received notice of the friday filing.]

C) Noteable by their absence are one operator that I know has been providing information to the case, and another that I suspect has been cooperating.

D) My surmise in part of this situation that they relied on information from a website (no longer up) that listed the wrong information for one of the operators in question.

I'll keep y'all posted as things develop.

Now, I must admit, I am lost! So to help me along, I've labeled some of the statements!

A)
1. how specifically was the document amended?
2. are the 5 who wouldn't "turncoat" brand new "accuseds" in SC's efforts?
3. what is the significance to the referenced filings that there are "sources" that have not been revealed? sources of what?

B)
1. was the party discussed at this point part of an "original" filing or did they become an addition thereto after they had not responded to SC's written allegations?

C)
1. "their absence" from what?

D)
1. "who" relied upon "what" from "which" website?

Someone please help!
 
Again you are wrong and not looking at it logically!

Steve, you slay me. I'm just not looking at it in the skewed self-rationalizing way you want me too.

You charge $250 for a servcie and pay out $125 per event for labor - logically, labor is you're most significant expense!

What if you rented the machine for $250 and paid no one? Is it not logical you would immediately double your gross take?
You formerly charged $400-$600 for this service and now get only $250 - logically, the value of karaoke is in decline!
 
Bob,
the reason it has declined is likely because the pirates took over the ship and in order to gain gigs the legits must now charge less. Or perhaps the legits didnt sell what their services provided that makes them better and the ones to go to even with a higher price tag. Hugo and other auto companies surely scared Mercedes and BMW, Porsche when these and other low ball pirates came into their territories and began selling their cheaper wares.
 
Proformance said:
Steve, you slay me. I'm just not looking at it in the skewed self-rationalizing way you want me too.

You charge $250 for a servcie and pay out $125 per event for labor - logically, labor is you're most significant expense!

What if you rented the machine for $250 and paid no one? Is it not logical you would immediately double your gross take?
You formerly charged $400-$600 for this service and now get only $250 - logically, the value of karaoke is in decline!

It's not skewed at all, since I am not working on those nights anyway we are talking almost 100% profit from those gigs. I am not paying the KJ or DJ they are being paid by the venue and from that they are paying me a rental for the gear!

On the contrary there is not a decline in karaoke there has simply been a huge in crease in the supply of KJs the vast majority of them being pirates. Even with the increase in the number of venues having Karaoke the supply of KJs has outsripped the number of venues!
 
Slep-Tone Lies

So how do you know they lied about contacting her with the offered settlement?

If she hasn't received notice of the filing she could yet be contacted with an offer to settle. But the truth maybe that she isn't even on the list! Yet!

Apparently, the effort by Sound Choice has already paid off in N.C. as 1 out of bunch has already agreed to settled! One will have his/her library audited and will not be bothered again and 5 more will settle before it is over!

Sounds to me like a plan that is coming together!

Because they stated clearly in their first letter that there was a limited time to accept the $6500/rig offer and they did NOT contact her withing the stated time frame.

She is now aware of the 2nd filing by SC and must now engage a lawyer to try and get things worked out.

Additionally, the one who agreed to the audit also now has to engage a lawyer and fight a cross-state battle to clear his name as a legitimate operator.

Your attitude is lacking compassion and knowledge.
 
Slep-Tone Lies

Now, I must admit, I am lost! So to help me along, I've labeled some of the statements!

A)
1. how specifically was the document amended?
2. are the 5 who wouldn't "turncoat" brand new "accuseds" in SC's efforts?
3. what is the significance to the referenced filings that there are "sources" that have not been revealed? sources of what?

They actually went ahead and filed suit against 5 of the original 13 defendants. The amendment is to list the 5 left in the suit. They are not new defendants, but the ones left in the suit. The cover letter on the first round stated that to get the offered settlements one must submit to the audits and reveal the source of their "pre-loaded" hard drives.


B)
1. was the party discussed at this point part of an "original" filing or did they become an addition thereto after they had not responded to SC's written allegations?

C)
1. "their absence" from what?

D)
1. "who" relied upon "what" from "which" website?

Someone please help!

The original suit has been amended to apparently drop certain parties from the suit. Of the dropped parties, two are know to be cooperating with SC in "finding" other operators and the sources of the allegedly pirate tracks. Your "C" point is that they are apparently no longer being sued.

Re: "D" The information which mistakenly identified one of the accused as being at a particular location during their (SCs) obeservations is apparently dereived from a website that listed local karaoke shows in the Raleigh-Durham area. The site is now down but the mistaken identity could only have been derived from that website.
 
But, that turn-out is going to be derived from the over-all hospitality experience and not specifically the karaoke host. You have to pick your venues very wisely.

Nicely put, and I agree, though I would add that the host is a large part of the hospitality experience. The wise choice of venues is VERY important. I find most success in upscale resaurant bars, though I am not limited to them.


Other thoughts:

IMHO, though piracy is certainly a serious issue, I find that the NUMBER of songs isn't really important. After all, just how many of those 100,000 songs are going to be sung? The problem with piracy is really that startups can do so extremely cheaply when the cost of a library is deducted- more and cheaper competition...

Also IMHO- and I know I will get a luddite slam for it:

Years ago, I noted and posted that DJs and KJs who ran public computer shows ran the risk of making it look too easy, and everyone with a PC ( which, at this point is almost everyone) will think they can do it too. I was pretty much told that couldn't happen- the skills of the DJ or Karaoke Host would protect the market......Lotta unskilled PC people in the market these days...

I also mentioned that if mfrs. digitized their music and made it available, piracy would quadruple at the very least, because no special equipment or supplies were needed ( discs, multi-burners, labeling equipment, a distribution network...etc...) to steal data off of the web other than the PC that most people have in their own home....


This is not an "I told you so", this is a point to be made: If people would use common sense, not greed or convenience, to make decisions in the first place, this sort of problem wouldn't arise, and we wouldn't be trying to get the cat back in the bag......

Ok, flak vest on, riot gear in place, and I went to the bathroom before I left....:sqerr: Let 'er rip.
 
Because they stated clearly in their first letter that there was a limited time to accept the $6500/rig offer and they did NOT contact her withing the stated time frame.

She is now aware of the 2nd filing by SC and must now engage a lawyer to try and get things worked out.

Additionally, the one who agreed to the audit also now has to engage a lawyer and fight a cross-state battle to clear his name as a legitimate operator.

Your attitude is lacking compassion and knowledge.

1. If she wasn't a pirate she wouldn't be looking to settle, I have no compassion for her at all!

2. Perhaps she should have been a little more aggressive in seeking a settlement instead of waiting for SC to come to her!

3. If the one who agreed to an audit (unless his library was full of pirated songs) he has no need to "clear" his name and as far as I can tell would have no need for a lawyer.

Maybe I just don't understand the situation, are you telling me SC is pursuing someone who has a legit library who has offered it up for an audit?

It would also appear from your information that if 11 were targeted and only 5 are now charged then 6 of them were either legit or settled!

What were the names of those who were legit? And what were the names of those who settled?
 
I understand all the banter back and forth about the lawsuit itself especially since its here in the Great State of North Carolina but as far as debating each others practices that seems useless.

Is it wrong to pirate ABSOLUTELY.

Moreso than just Sound Choice you have WHOLE GINORMOUS record companies loosing millions of dollars due to pirates.

Forget KJs now for a couple $100 bucks at planetdj or guitar center and a computer with torrentz you can put up a shingle and charge $200 per gig on the dj side too.

We all deal with hearing "geez i shouldve hired the more professional dj and not the craigslister" but thats usually too late, thats after the bride cried, they didnt get their first dance song and couldnt play it because they didnt even bring a cd player

thats a whole nother topic though

I enjoyed catching up on the whole SC thing and think I know who the girl in question is but this legitimacy of the whole KJer is fruitless

Kyle
 
Who qualifies as a pirate?

1. If she wasn't a pirate she wouldn't be looking to settle, I have no compassion for her at all!

2. Perhaps she should have been a little more aggressive in seeking a settlement instead of waiting for SC to come to her!

3. If the one who agreed to an audit (unless his library was full of pirated songs) he has no need to "clear" his name and as far as I can tell would have no need for a lawyer.

Maybe I just don't understand the situation, are you telling me SC is pursuing someone who has a legit library who has offered it up for an audit?

It would also appear from your information that if 11 were targeted and only 5 are now charged then 6 of them were either legit or settled!

What were the names of those who were legit? And what were the names of those who settled?

I am not naming names on the board. The lady in question (#1) is an op who has plenty of CDG discs to her name, and was simply overzealous when moving to a computer based show. I can't be sure from incomplete information just who is and isn't pirating - you seem to be able to tell with no information.

And yes, SC is persuing suit against a legit op (#2) who offered to undergo an audit even though he was NOT the person observed in the information presented in the suit. (I.e. he wasn't the show op at the time stated - they seem to have selected his name from the website which was wrong.) By SC's continuation of suit against him he must now get a lawyer to handle the federal court in Charlotte (he's in Raleigh) against a false charge.

The implication of the amended suit is that of the original 9 or so named, only five are now being filed against.
 
I just found this on another forum:

FYI, SC IS NOT settleing for 5000 and its entire library, In order to settle, you have to remove any SC from your HD you do not own an original to, and they will send you approx 4000 songs on disc's they still have in stock, that can be loaded if you wish on your HD, and in the settlement agreement there is a huge fine if your ever caught with SC and no original.

The previous came from someone who has proven in the past to have an "inside track" into what SC has been doing. And what he describes is a lot different than the "offers" we have been led to believe that SC has been making.... quite different! And note there is no mention of other manufacturers!
 
..there is not a decline in karaoke there has simply been a huge in crease in the supply of KJs the vast majority of them being pirates.

That itself is illogical. The difference between $600 and $125 is so dramatic that it could not possibly be the result of competing DJs.

What has changed is how karaoke affects the bottom line of the venue. It simply doesn't generate enough NEW business anymore to be worth $600. Instead, what you have is a variety of KJs and the same karaoke groupies moving from bar to bar.

JoeChartreuse said:
IMHO, though piracy is certainly a serious issue, I find that the NUMBER of songs isn't really important. After all, just how many of those 100,000 songs are going to be sung?

Exactly, at some very early point in the process the downloading fool simply becomes a squirrel gathering nuts and the endless roster of songs collected serves no purpose at all. Consequently, they also have no value - making the argument about "cost" even weaker.

The reason we don't all see eye to eye is that DJs rate their shows by attendance (how well they rock the house) while the owner rates the show by how loud the cash register rings. You could be doing a dynamite job - but if the patrons are drinking water the owner will not pay $600 to have you there.
 
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