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TEACHING TRADITIONAL "HISTORY" A NO NO

The problem with modern public school text books is that Evolution isnt tought as a theory. It is tought as a fact. There are too many holes in it to call it fact still. I have no problem with it being tought, I have a problem with it being tought as the one and only option and basing all your other lessons off of that.
I'm pretty sure you can't find a textbook in use today that doesn't teach evolution as a theory. I'm not sure that I am familiar with the holes in the theory. Which parts of it are unsupported? If it is going to be taught at all it has to be taught as the one an only option because it is. There is no other scientific explanation for the diversity and similarity of life that we see today.
Lets just teach are kids the meat and potatos of science and let them make thier own decisions later. Just tell them how we know things work. The thing about teaching the origins is we really dont need to. How things came about does not change how they are now. Just teach them how we know things work. Thats all they need to know.
I understand what you are saying but I think we would be doing our kids a disservice by not giving them a complete education in the sciences. What would you tell a kid who asked something like, "Why does the giraffe have such a long neck?" Or "why do all mammals have fur and live births?" The questions which are answered by evolution and nothing else are almost countless.

Much of modern medicine and biology is based on the theory of evolution. That is how they make the flu shot. They make educated guesses as to how the current flu strains will mutate and they make a ****tail to deal with those. Some obviously slip through and people still get sick but it is pretty reliable. Why does testing on animals work at all? Because mammals all evolved from a common ancestor. The farther you go from that the less reliable your results. Why do we try to transplant primate hearts and not say the heart of a large dog? You guessed it evolution. Evolution is one of the best supported theories in Biology today and it should be taught. The only objections to evolution are religious and we know how much weight those carry in US public schools.

If Kansas had simply removed evolution from the curriculum they wouldn't be getting this much crap.
 
I think is still considered as a theory, but I could be wrong. Like the Big Bang Theory, Black Hole, etc. All theories until we gather more informations. Now we have more proof that the center of the galaxies are huge black holes from one of the numbered galaxies.

Intelligent Design ~ leaves a more supernatural / unexplained creating everything which does hint either a God (which is the real reason behind it) or Alien race from another planet creating life on Earth (which is not they had designed behind this concept)

Religion is a faith in God or the spirits or something unseen and unproven. They should continue to teach this outside of government held schools. Intelligent Design skirts this issue. The main concept of Intelligent Design is some higher intelligence was our creator. Which may or may not be true.

Evolution is a more agreed upon scientific theory and should be continued to be taught in school. Intelligent Design is not an accepted scientific theory so shouldn't be taught at this time.
 
THe thing about scientific theory's is that they can never be proven. No matter how much evidence we find that supports evolution we still never know that there isn't some piece of evidence out there which proves it all wrong. So most scientific theory's can be taught as fact because no peice of evidence has come allong which can disprove it.
 
Reading this from Wikipedia, I still contend that there is no harm in teaching both the THEORY of Evolution, and the THEORY of Intelligent Design.

Wikipedia said:
The Intelligent Design debate centers on three issues:

1. whether the definition of science is broad enough to allow for theories of origins which incorporate the acts of an intelligent designer
2. whether the evidence supports such theories
3. whether the teaching of such theories is appropriate in public education.

Intelligent Design supporters generally hold that science must allow for both natural and supernatural explanations of phenomena. They assert that excluding supernatural explanations artificially limits the realm of possibilities, particularly where naturalistic explanations fail to explain certain phenomena. Supernatural explanations provide a very simple and parsimonious explanation for the origins of life and the universe. Proponents claim that the evidence strongly supports such explanations, as instances of so-called irreducible complexity and specified complexity appear to make it highly unreasonable that the full complexity and diversity of life came about solely through natural means.

Finally, supporters hold that religious neutrality requires the teaching of both evolution and Intelligent Design in schools, because teaching only evolution unfairly discriminates against those holding the Creationist beliefs. Teaching both, Intelligent Design supporters argue, allows for a scientific basis for religious belief, without causing the state to actually promote a religious belief.

According to critics of Intelligent Design, not only has Intelligent Design failed to establish reasonable doubt in its proposed shortcomings of accepted scientific theories, but it has not even presented a case worth taking seriously. Critics of Intelligent Design argue that Intelligent Design has not presented a credible case for the public policy utility of presenting Intelligent Design in education. More broadly, critics maintain that it has not met the minimum legal standard of not being a "clear" attempt to establish religion, which in the United States is constitutionally forbidden. Scientists argue that those advocating "scientific" treatment of "supernatural" phenomena are grossly misunderstanding the issue, and indeed misunderstand the nature and purpose of science itself. Furthermore, if one were to take the proponents of "equal time for all theories" at their word, there would be no logical limit to the number of potential "theories" to be taught in the public school system. While Christian fundamentalists imagine their God to be the only deity to be referenced, a cursory examination of mankind's belief systems reveals that there is a very large number of potential supernatural "explanations" for the emergence and organization of life on earth, none of which have any empirical support and all of which therefore are equally deserving of promotion as Intelligent Design. Proponents of Intelligent Design, however, rarely if ever appear to note such alternative theological/supernatural possibilities, defaulting invariably to their particular interpretation of the Christian God.

Between these two positions there is a large body of opinion that does not condone the teaching of what is considered unscientific or questionable material, but is generally sympathetic to the position of Deism/Theism and therefore desires some compromise between the two. The nominal points of contention are seen as being proxies for other issues. Many Intelligent Design followers are quite open about their view that "Scientism" is itself a religion that promotes secularism and materialism in an attempt to erase religion from public life and view their work in the promotion of Intelligent Design as a way to return religion to a central role in education and other public spheres. Some allege that this larger debate is often the subtext for arguments made over Intelligent Design, though others note that Intelligent Design serves as an effective proxy for the religious beliefs of prominent Intelligent Design proponents in their efforts to advance their religious point of view within society.
 
I still contend that there is no harm in teaching both the THEORY of Evolution, and the THEORY of Intelligent Design.
I would agree with this statement if you could show that ID is a valid scientific theory. Even the most ardent proponents of ID can't show that. The only way they have been able to make it a scientific theory is by changing the definition of science. In fact I'll go one better. Just give me one falsifiable test for a designer and I will withdraw my objection to ID.

Also, your Wikipedia article doesn't seem to help your case. :)
 
bob_gray said:
Also, your Wikipedia article doesn't seem to help your case. :)
Bob do I sense sarcasm in that Smiley Face? :laughing7

I thought the Wipipedia article did support my case, as it mentioned both the Intelligent Design supporter's position and the Intelligent Design critic's position. It presented the facts to the reader and allowed them decide for themselves, which is all one can ask for.
 
ID is not a scientific theory. "Theory" in everyday speech means a very different thing from "theory" as it is used in the scientific community. Its proponents are committing a logical fallacy by confusing one with the other (though they are probably doing this intentionally and hoping nobody will catch on).

Everyday Definition: "a belief that can guide behavior; 'the architect has a theory that more is less'; 'they killed him on the theory that dead men tell no tales'"

Scientific Definition: "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; 'theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses'; 'true in fact and theory'"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Comparison: "A scientific theory is an established and experimentally verified fact or collection of facts about the world. Unlike the everyday use of the word theory, it is not an unproved idea, or just some theoretical speculation. The latter meaning of a 'theory' in science is called a hypothesis."
www.whatislife.com/glossary.htm

A theory cannot be considered a scientific theory unless it produces testable, falsifiable hypothesis. The point being to provide a means to determine through experimentation whether or not the theory holds true in reality. Also, simply being a scientific theory does not guarantee a theory a place in the classroom. Theories must undergo many rounds of scrutiny and testing before they are considered well substantiated enough to merit being taught. The theory of evolution has not been disproved or even seriously contradicted in the 140 or so years it's been around (compared to the decade or two that the ID movement has been around). Quite the opposite actually, many discoveries in biology have even served to clarify the mechanisms of evolution, such as Watson and Crick's discovery of DNA, the means by which traits are passed on. Evolution is also one of the primary means by which the HIV virus evades destruction. HIV mutates very rapidly; within a very short period of time a given individual infected with HIV is carrying every possible (functional) strain of the virus. When the doctors administer anti-retroviral ****tails, the best they can do is slow down the virus's progress. Once anti-retroviral ****tail is administered the vulnerable strains are neutralized and those strains with resistance to that anti-retroviral mix become the dominant strains. Thus the viral population evolves a resistance, and the anti-retroviral therapy becomes useless.

It seems I'm getting off topic. Evolution will always be a theory, even if it is never disproved and the human race carries on forever. The "laws" you hear of in science are really theories by the modern definition. Back it the day scientists thought that with enough evidence something could be proven true beyond any shadow of a doubt. Today, they have decided that no amount of evidence will ever suffice to elevate a theory to "law" status.

"Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof." - Ashley Montague
 
Funny this thread was about allowing a teacher teach and not have the school board dictate politics in the classroom. Now its switched to ID which is dictating politics into a classroom. Funny how it envolved into complete opposite discussion.

I agree with smo1704 wholeheartly. I don't think I could add anything to what he wrote. Well written and thought out. If Intelligent Design is not recognized by the scientific community as a scientific theory then it should not be taught in school.

The article that Goingnova is interesting but only proves its a political agenda/ nicely worded argument to get this concept to be taught in schools. Funny one state had voted this in and 8 board members were all voted out of office. I guess the parents are able to control the concepts of what is being taught in school after all. The court was wrong after all.
 
Moderate One said:
If Intelligent Design is not recognized by the scientific community as a scientific theory then it should not be taught in school.

How does one define "scientific community"? I am sure there are "scientists" that believe in Intelligent Design. Who is this wonderful little group that we can go and ask, and get the definitive answer as to whether or not Intelligent Design is science or not?

Me thinks it is not so simple my friend.
 
There is a whole process on how scientific theories become recognized by the community as a whole. I can probably look it up, since off the top of my head I don't recall its details. Scientists might believe in the concept of Intelligent Design but you won't see majority of them place this a scientific theory. Most scientists are like anyone else, have religious backgrounds and possibly strongly believe in religion. But they know to separate their faith from their scientific world of theories and discoveries.

Hmmm actually now I am curious.. going to research how theories become accepted.
 
Scientific Laws, Hypotheses, and Theories
http://wilstar.com/theories.htm
If scientific theories keep changing, where is the Truth?
http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node9.html
Is Intelligent Design a Bad Scientific Theory or a Non-Scientific Theory
http://www.techcentralstation.com/111005B.html
Scientific method - Wikipedia (Encyclopedia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
Religious conservatives tout "intelligent design" as a "secular," "scientific" alternative to evolution
http://mediamatters.org/items/200412210002
 
Read all these articles including the Goingnova one snuck in when I found one put some good theories on Intelligent Design. (A Theory of Biblical Creation) was probably the best arguement for Intelligent Design.

Still like the law of the courts where DNA and other types of theories had to be accepted by the scientific community before they could be used in court, so would Intelligent Design.
 
Still not science

GoingNova said:
I thought the Wipipedia article did support my case, as it mentioned both the Intelligent Design supporter's position and the Intelligent Design critic's position.
The way I read the article it presented the ID position and then showed why it was not science and hence not appropriate for a science class. That was why I didn't think it supported your position.
How does one define "scientific community"? I am sure there are "scientists" that believe in Intelligent Design.
The scientific community is the group of people who work on developing scientific theories as described by smo. Most if not all of them have Ph.D.s and do research in scientific fields. They are also administrators of organizations such as the NIH which gives money to these scientists to conduct their research. These scientists do research and then submit it to other scientists for critical peer review. If their results are found to be valid they are then published for review by everyone.

While there are scientists who believe in ID their ID "science" doesn't get published because it fails to meet the criteria of a scientific theory. For something to be science it has to be reproducible no matter what your religion, and ID can't do that. As I pointed out, they even admit that it is only "science" if you change the definition of "science". Surprisingly the scientific community doesn't want to do that.

IDnetwork link said:
The first reason: "Where do we come from?" An answer that natural processes alone are sufficient to explain our origins supports agnosticism, atheism and secular humanism.
I did not have time to read the entire document and I'm sure few others did either but their very first (and supposedly best) reason fails by inspection since at the very least the Catholic church (as well as many protestant Christian denominations) all support evolution as the correct answer to the question "Where do we come from?" Clearly evolution in no way supports agnosticism or atheism.

The bottom line is that ID is _NOT_ science and does not belong in a science class. Arguments about "equality" have no validity because science is not about equality, it is about investigating testable phenomena. Unless someone can come up with a scientific test for this mysterious designer, ID will remain in the realm of religion.
 
The thing I find funny about this is, that the rules for scientific theory are some how concrete. The definition of scientific theory, why is it so solid and unchangable? Why does somthing, to be science, have to be reproducable? Why? Because someone said it does. Does it have to be? All of this started because someone said thats how it should be. Mabey they are wrong? To blindly accept what the definition of science is you are in effect flying in the face of that definition.

Personally I like this quote. "Just because there is absence of evidence does not mean there is evidence of absence." You cant prove irrefutably that God does not exists just as much as I cannot prove irrefutably that God does exist. Untill a method of doing either is found this argument is pointless. Let the people who have faith and believe do so and let the people who dont, dont. But to purposfully teach our children one idea over another is not healthy to thier development. Am I saying we should teach them all ideas? NO! We dont have 100 years to school our kids. I think in the absence of irrefutable proof of how things came to be we should NOT TEACH THEM HOW THINGS CAME TO BE!

What is wrong with teaching the basics of sciences? What harm is going to be done to the development of children by letting them draw conclutions on a subject like that on thier own?

You can teach sciences without teaching evolution. To teach evolution you are talking about history. In the theory of evolution it take millenia for things to happen. NEVER in a persons life are they ever going to whitness an evolutionary change. We should teach them the things that are going on right now, that are happening, observably, as we speek. Teach them about how the circulatory system works, teach them about chemicals and the periodic table. And when they ask, how did all this come to be? You say, "Ask your parents."

Basically, since we cannot teach children ALL the different opinions on the subject of the origins of the universe we should teach them NONE of them.

The problem with teaching either opinion is that children go to school and assume that absolutly everything they are being taught is true. Even if you say, "Its just a theory" more often then not they are going to accept it as fact.

I want some body to come up with a logical argument as to why we MUST teach children evolution? Why is the teaching of evolution a neccesary element of the teaching of science?
 
Sicander said:
Personally I like this quote. "Just because there is absence of evidence does not mean there is evidence of absence." You cant prove irrefutably that God does not exists just as much as I cannot prove irrefutably that God does exist. Untill a method of doing either is found this argument is pointless. Let the people who have faith and believe do so and let the people who dont, dont. But to purposfully teach our children one idea over another is not healthy to thier development. Am I saying we should teach them all ideas? NO! We dont have 100 years to school our kids. I think in the absence of irrefutable proof of how things came to be we should NOT TEACH THEM HOW THINGS CAME TO BE!
The theory of evolution states only as follows:
1) In a population there are variations in traits among individuals
2) Some of these traits are more adaptive than others
3) Those with more adaptive traits are more likely to survive and leave offspring than those with less adaptive traits
4) An individual's passes on its traits to its offspring
5) Since those with more adaptive traits tend to leave more offspring, and their offspring carry those more adaptive traits, over time these more adaptive traits become prevalent throughout the population

Nowhere does the theory itself state where life came from; that is just something we can extrapolate from the theory. It is this extrapolation that the conflicts with religion, not the theory itself.

Furthermore, evolution is practically the foundation of modern biology, so if junior wants to get a job as a doctor someday it's something he should know.

As for teaching them one idea over another: I'd certainly like any children I may have taught the heliocentric model of the solar system over the earth centric model, and the quantum (or at least Bohr) theory of the atom over the "Plum pudding model," and the same goes for evolution over Lamarckism. Not all ideas are created equal.

I find it curious that people accept scientific knowledge so readily when it is extending their lives and curing disease, but turn on it so quickly when it challenges their beliefs. Current medical technology can re-attach a severed limb, or give sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf (provided this is done early enough in the patients life that they can adapt to the new sense). These are things that would have been considered miracles by those who wrote the Bible, and yet in modern medicine they are done on a day-to-day basis and considered nothing out of the ordinary. Say what you will of science, but I will say this much: It works.

Sicander said:
The thing I find funny about this is, that the rules for scientific theory are some how concrete. The definition of scientific theory, why is it so solid and unchangable? Why does somthing, to be science, have to be reproducable? Why? Because someone said it does. Does it have to be? All of this started because someone said thats how it should be. Mabey they are wrong? To blindly accept what the definition of science is you are in effect flying in the face of that definition.
Reproducibility is practically the core of science. Scientific theories are supposed to be predictive. That is, after all, why we create them. Those tax dollars aren't just going to pay a bunch of scientists to discover interesting factoids about the universe; the purpose is to develop models for the underlying mechanisms of the universe, and perhaps bend them to our will (as in: E=MC^2 -----> atomic bomb). Events that aren't reproducible are of no interest to science, as they cannot be predicted or even studied. If a theory isn't reproducible it isn't predictive, if it isn't predictive it isn't useful, and if it isn't useful why should we waste our time?

Sicander said:

You can teach sciences without teaching evolution. To teach evolution you are talking about history. In the theory of evolution it take millenia for things to happen. NEVER in a persons life are they ever going to whitness an evolutionary change. We should teach them the things that are going on right now, that are happening, observably, as we speek. Teach them about how the circulatory system works, teach them about chemicals and the periodic table. And when they ask, how did all this come to be? You say, "Ask your parents."
Not true. Evolution happens on a measurable scale on a daily basis. Why do you think there is such a concern with "resistant bacteria" these days? Thanks to repeated exposure they are beginning to evolve resistances to our antibiotics (This is the reason doctors tell you to take all your antibiotics even if you feel better. You must destroy the bacteria completely to prevent any resistant strains from developing.). Companies are pouring millions of dollars into research to develop new and more potent antibiotics to combat these new resistant strains. Also, as I mentioned before, HIV uses evolution as a survival tool, and in that case the entire evolutionary process takes place quickly enough to kill someone (over the course of a decade or so).
 
Back to the ORIGINAL topic, there has been an update. You can read the ENTIRE UPDATE HERE:

SCHOOL CHIEFS BOMBSHELL ADMISSIONS!

This is HUGE.

The cat is now officially out of the bag in Carson City. Maggie O'Neill of the local Nevada Appeal newspaper has a well-balanced front-page story on the Joe Enge brouhaha in this morning's paper. The school district, which clearly had hoped to simply sweep this matter under the rug, has no choice now but to address it. Openly. And publicly.

You can read Ms. O'Neill's "Teacher Says District Off Track" story online HERE

In addition, as alluded to yesterday, the Joe Enge story has now gone NATIONAL. Jay Mathews, the education reporter for the Washington Post, published "Fired for Teaching Too Much" in our nation's capital this morning. You can read it online HERE

Remember, the issue which first sparked this controversy was Mr. Enge's contention that Carson High School was starting 11th-grade history at Reconstruction, truncating early U.S. history and relegating the Revolutionary War to, at best, a mere "review" of what kids learned three years earlier in middle school. District officials have, in essence, been calling whistle-blower Enge a "liar," insisting that all the teachers at Carson High have been teaching all of U.S. history to all the students all along.

Now get this.

In the Washington Post story, Dr. Mary Pierczynski, the Carson City school superintendent, admits that, according to Mathews, "her district prefers a relatively quick review of America through the Civil War at the beginning of 11th grade." Dr. Pierczynski is quoted as admitting, "The exploration of America through 1865 is taught in the 8th grade," therefore the 11th-grade history class at Carson High is limited to "a review and elaboration of the 8th-grade material." Mathews also notes that other school officials told him that "an 11th-grade focus on the later 19th century and the 20th century will produce a deeper and more engaging course."

Whoa!

Isn't that EXACTLY what Joe Enge has been alleging all along? That early American history in the 11th-grade is merely being "reviewed," not "taught;" that the gap between 8th grade and 11th grade is way too big to relegate our Founding to just a short "review."

And now comes THIS bombshell.

In Ms. O'Neill's Nevada Appeal story, Carson High Principal Fred Perdomo admits that "U.S. history teachers at Carson High begin the year with a review of the Revolutionary War." He adds, and this is a quote: "I would have to say that the majority of the history teachers are teaching pre-1865." Perdomo also says that "If Joe (Enge) was told not to teach pre-Civil War history, it wasn't by me."

The key words here are "review," "majority" and "if."

Finally, the school principal is on record, publicly admitting for the first time that what Joe Enge has alleged all along is...TRUE. U.S. history in 11-th grade at Carson High hasn't been "taught" in full; it's been "reviewed." Just as Dr. Pierczynski told the Washington Post.

Mr. Perdomo also admits that while a "majority" of teachers are now teaching pre-1865 history, that isn't the same thing as saying ALL teachers are teaching pre-1865 history. Now, I'm know...er, no English major, but this statement in plain English says to me that some 11th-grade history teachers at Carson High School are, indeed, starting with Reconstruction (just as the official course description book says) and NOT the Revolutionary War.

The obvious question: Why not? Why aren't ALL the U.S. History teachers in Mr. Perdomo's school teaching ALL of U.S. history to ALL of the students there? And why does the "brass" continue to insist that the full span of U.S. history is being taught to all our kids when even the school PRINCIPAL and SCHOOL SUPERINTENDENT finally admit it's not so.

And where the heck is the SCHOOL BOARD while all of this has been going on? Would someone PUH-LEASE wake them up!

Lastly, Mr. Perdomo says that "if" Joe Enge was told not to teach pre-Civil War history, it wasn't by him. Which is, in fact, an admission that maybe, just maybe, somebody BEFORE Mr. Perdomo became principal last year DID tell Joe Enge to follow the official course description and start teaching 11th-grade U.S. history with Reconstruction.

Joe Enge has FINALLY been vindicated. Game. Set. Match.

What we need to see now are at least two things:

1.) A clear, unambiguous statement from the Carson City School District that from this point forward, ALL 11th-grade U.S. history teachers at Carson High (not just a "majority") WILL teach ALL of U.S. history to ALL of their students. Not as a simple "review" of 8th-grade U.S. history. Completely. Fully. In depth. It's time to put this issue to bed once and for all. No more "spin."

2.) All those biased "unsatisfactory" evaluations of Joe Enge which have been used to "punish" him for blowing the whistle on this matter three years ago need to be removed PERMANENTLY from his file. An objective, unbiased evaluator then needs to be sent into Joe Enge's class and do a REAL evaluation of his teaching ability and performance. And *if* this neutral evaluator finds areas which could use improvement, fine. I'm certain Joe will take them to heart and respond accordingly.

It's time to right this injustice and give our kids the U.S. history education they need and deserve.

Read the Rest
 
Hello, Joe Enge Responding

Hello everyone, I am the subject of the recent debate. Actually, the real subject is the content of U.S. history. I believe an original question was whether Nevada requires the earlier periods (Prior to Civil War) in its state standards. I can answer yes as one of the authors of Nevada's History Content Standards and hence the controversy and the very reason for my stand. What is troubling is the complete silence on the part of our Nevada State Department of Education. They actually do not have any content enforcement authority, but they could at least speak out on the issue. Carson City is a small town capital, so the people in the school district are tight with the people in the Nevada State Department of Education. In fact the state person in charge of overseeing Social Studies was a former teacher at my high school and good friends with my department chair, hence the silence. Nevada is large geographically, but very small among the powers that be. For the record, I would like to point out two things that I voted against in the state standards back in 1997 when we wrote them. First, I completely disagreed with including the B.C.E. (Before Common Era) and C.E. (Common Era) designations to be included as being only a current political correct fad. We should stick only to the traditional B.C. and A.D. designations. Secondly, I disagreed with ending the "Cold War Era" in 1990 as the Soviet Union fell in 1991. Heck, I was there shortly afterwards teaching.I was the lone dissenting vote on both being told "everybody else is using the new date designations" on the first issue and that "1990 is a nice, even year" on the second issue. Wow, lemming philosophy and make the time period an even number rational! They outvoted me on those two objections, but my main objective of making sure all of history was included was won, so I met my primary objective by serving on that committee. Feel free to e-mail me at: enge@sbcglobal.netif you have any questions or need clarifications. My Web site is at: www.senatorserver.net~jengeAll the best,Joe Enge
 
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