117,000 & other rumours, myths & lies

[JoeChartreuse]

Proformance i've noticed EVERY one of your responses saying you should ignore piracy because if you don't then your business is lacking or your goals are messed up. I'm sorry but you are simply incorrect. I want to rid this industry of as much of the piracy as possible and i do some works towards that goal and yet my company is still thriving and growing by leaps and bounds, and i'm friends with almost every host locally. I don't have a problem with you stating your opinion but believe me we all know your position. And to be honest a couple times i understand your point and appreciate you input, but there is one area you need to realize you should let go. The fight against piracy has begun, it's finally being united in states all of the country and amongst manufacturers and KJ's alike and for the first time is a more united effort.

Lone, I am reading what he's posting with a slightly different slant. What I'm getting isn't that he's against the fight against piracy ( actually, I don't know ANYONE who would feel that way), but merely saying that one can't put all blame for shows that don't make it onto the shoulders of a single common denominator.

In other words, what happens if every pirate is shut down and a host still can't get bookings or run a show that lasts more than a month. Who will be the next common enemy?

The top hosts in my area are as undamaged by piracy as I am. On the other hand, the less skilled hosts are certainly taking a hit from them- but they are taking a hit from me too, and I charge MORE than they do. They are also taking a hit from other good hosts. They are also taking a hit because their venues overcharge, or because of the economy, or because they are just plain lousy at what they do.

Of course I get venues who ask me why the other guy is so much cheaper than I- and I tell them:

1) Not that they really care ( or at least they don't react much), but I tell them that I am legal and their venues will not be troubled because of an illegal music source.

2) I tell them that I am disc based, and will also be happy to play customers' original mfr. discs ( this is a biggie in my area, and most of the PC hosts don't provide this service here.)

3) I tell them I have been successful in this area for decades- ( BTW, my definition of a successful show is one that has run for at least one year + and was/is still bringing folks in and profitable for the venue).

4) I give them a list of references - a full track record of past and current venues- as well as private and event venue references.

5) I ask them to come to one of my shows and witness what I do and how I do it.

6) I base my fee on the income I feel can be generated at that type and size venue, the day of the week, and location. A fair price for generating profits.

BTW- I'm ALSO honest enough to tell them if I don't feel the venue can make money on this type of entertainment ( imagine a 15 seat old man bar 50 miles from nowhere). Part of being successful is to pick the proper venues. It's the combination of venue AND Host that makes or breaks a show.

7) I tell them at the outset: Give me six weeks, same day each week, uninterrupted. If I'm successful, we continue on. If not, we part friends and no hard feelings.

I rarely walk away from a face-to-face without a booking.


Back to Pro's post. I'm just reading it as though piracy can be a PITA, it is not the only problem a host may be having if there are no bookings or short runs. I read nothing ( from my perspective only) that said he is against fighting piracy.

 

[Guest]

Joe,

Although I agree with you that even being a legal host doesn't make you a good host, just as being a pirate doesn't make you a bad host. But there are a lot of bad pirate host taking up space in bars that even a mediocre at best legal host could be doing.

Looking at the saturation level of the market because of pirate host I see the pay level continuing to stay low until they are eliminated. Yes there will be venues that can't or won't pay a higher level but in the end that means attendance at legal shows (that pay more money) will go up justifying the increase in pay.

Elimination of even 25% of the pirate population will have results!

 

[Guest]

Eliminating piracy will not have any effect on your pay. Low pay is and always has been the result of poor decision making on the part of the payee.

You will get paid what you ask for and ONLY if you are wise enough to ask for it in the right places.

There are inumerable venues where karaoke will never generate enough revenue to adequately compensate the KJ. Those of you who pursue those jobs are as Steve said: "just taking up space."

Your pay has nothing at all to do with piracy.

 

[Loneavenger]

Your pay has nothing at all to do with piracy.

I'm sorry but to some extent here you are wrong. I have worked about every venue here and have been at this a long time Pro, I know what the rates are and how they were decided and I've negotiated with a LOT of people. When it comes to WEEKLY gigs, unfortunately piracy has had a huge effect on the rates any educated bar will pay. You cannot ignore this fact and try to blame it on other factors. Some things are due to piracy and the rate bars pay is most definitely one of them

 

[c. staley]

I'm sorry but to some extent here you are wrong. I have worked about every venue here and have been at this a long time Pro, I know what the rates are and how they were decided and I've negotiated with a LOT of people. When it comes to WEEKLY gigs, unfortunately piracy has had a huge effect on the rates any educated bar will pay. You cannot ignore this fact and try to blame it on other factors. Some things are due to piracy and the rate bars pay is most definitely one of them

Well I have to disagree with you....

You might as well say that if Aerosmith decided to play at a bar down the street that they couldn't get anymore than the regular pay that bar bands get?

It what you can provide... it's how well you can provide it.

Otherwise, you are simply at the mercy of what the bar owners have been trained to pay, you're sending a message that you're worth nothing more - so why would they feel obligated to pay more?

 

[Loneavenger]

Well I have to disagree with you....

You might as well say that if Aerosmith decided to play at a bar down the street that they couldn't get anymore than the regular pay that bar bands get?

It what you can provide... it's how well you can provide it.

Otherwise, you are simply at the mercy of what the bar owners have been trained to pay, you're sending a message that you're worth nothing more - so why would they feel obligated to pay more?

You're missing my point, which is why i say he's wrong to a point. I make $200-$250 a night which is at the top of what bars will pay.......now WHY is that the top of what they will currently pay, when i offer more than anyone else can? The reasoning is because of those KJ's they could pay $75 to and although they'd provide a mediocre show at best they COULD hire them, they have no problem paying us more because of everything else we offer......to an extent , but that doesn't change the fact that the pirates help to set that rate bars will pay. For example, it would be considered cheap around here to do a private party for 4 hours for $500, but try and get a bar to pay anything near that for Karaoke and let me know what happens. Now before piracy was this possible, ABSOLUTELY. There is no way to say the price is COMPLETELY set on your sales skills and what you bring to the table, and i know this for a fact.

 

[Guest]

Eliminating piracy will not have any effect on your pay. Low pay is and always has been the result of poor decision making on the part of the payee.

You will get paid what you ask for and ONLY if you are wise enough to ask for it in the right places.

There are inumerable venues where karaoke will never generate enough revenue to adequately compensate the KJ. Those of you who pursue those jobs are as Steve said: "just taking up space."

Your pay has nothing at all to do with piracy.

Here is where you are wrong, if the pirates are removed from the equation the small bars that can't afford to pay for or justify a decent show will stop having karaoke for a very simple reason Lack of a host willing to do a show for beer money! The patrons that are going to these shows (who love karaoke) will then seek out venues where it is available thus increasing the attendance and profits of that venue. In turn this will increase the value of the host which brings up the demand for the good host, which brings up the price. This in turn brings up the value of the lesser host (because of availability) as well as his prices.

I see it the same way I saw the pricing erroded by the increase of KJs, where prices a KJ could get were running the same as a good local bar band, simply because there were many different venues wanting the services of a very few KJs. As the number of KJs in the area increased the prices you could get decreased.

Reversing that is already having the opposite effect. It is really a simple thing called supply and demand, there are many pirates who will simple close up shop rather than spend any money on the business. That is what these lawsuits are doing!

 

[c. staley]

Reversing that is already having the opposite effect. It is really a simple thing called supply and demand, there are many pirates who will simple close up shop rather than spend any money on the business. That is what these lawsuits are doing!

Pipe dreams.

And the pirates that are NOT working for beer money will simply become "customers" and there will be no effect.

 

[c. staley]

You're missing my point, which is why i say he's wrong to a point. I make $200-$250 a night which is at the top of what bars will pay.......now WHY is that the top of what they will currently pay, when i offer more than anyone else can? The reasoning is because of those KJ's they could pay $75 to and although they'd provide a mediocre show at best they COULD hire them, they have no problem paying us more because of everything else we offer......to an extent , but that doesn't change the fact that the pirates help to set that rate bars will pay. For example, it would be considered cheap around here to do a private party for 4 hours for $500, but try and get a bar to pay anything near that for Karaoke and let me know what happens. Now before piracy was this possible, ABSOLUTELY. There is no way to say the price is COMPLETELY set on your sales skills and what you bring to the table, and i know this for a fact.

A bar will never pay you the same you'd get for a private ONE TIME party when they can guarantee you at least 52 nights a year. There is a quantity discount in this case.

What can you possibly offer that would be "more than" let's say Joe C. can offer? There's only so much you can "do" at a karaoke show....

 

[Loneavenger]

A bar will never pay you the same you'd get for a private ONE TIME party when they can guarantee you at least 52 nights a year. There is a quantity discount in this case.

What can you possibly offer that would be "more than" let's say Joe C. can offer? There's only so much you can "do" at a karaoke show....

I'm not going to compare us to Joe C. because from what i can tell Joe is a great host and has a great system going for him that really works. There is a lack of that locally. All i will say is We do everything we can to keep our shows entertaining, New and fresh, and Remember i own a large production company, the fact is we use a level of equipment that karaoke company's can't really compete with. Our Business cards and slogan states we have the Best Production, DJ , and Karaoke in the state and we stand by that wholeheartedly without doubt.

 

[JoeChartreuse]

You're missing my point, which is why i say he's wrong to a point. I make $200-$250 a night which is at the top of what bars will pay.......now WHY is that the top of what they will currently pay.

Let me know if I'm reading this correctly:

What you're saying is that even if the cheap KJ doesn't get all the gigs, the very fact that they are there affects the fee average in the area? In other words, because that $75 fee is out there, the median fee is thus lowered, bringing down the top of the scale?

If so, then I can agree with that, but only to an extent.

If I charge $300, and can show a past record of putting $2,000+ in the till for other similar venues, I'm still going to get that - even if it's above the top end of the scale- as opposed to the others who may not have the track record, rep, or skill.

So yes, true, but only to an extent.

One other problem though: Not all undercutters are pirates. Some are newbies trying to make their way through the door, or hobbyists with other incomes, etc... So those fees of $75 are still going to be out there ( and BTW, always have been) lowering that median. Also, in my area, pirates pretty much charge as much as many of the legits.

Sure, less pirates in business would open more venues up. However, back to a long forgotten issue. So far, no one has SHUT DOWN or caused a RAISING OF FEES by any significent number of pirates.

Moot point.

 

[Loneavenger]

Let me know if I'm reading this correctly:

What you're saying is that even if the cheap KJ doesn't get all the gigs, the very fact that they are there affects the fee average in the area? In other words, because that $75 fee is out there, the median fee is thus lowered, bringing down the top of the scale?

Basically, this is correct. Especially in an area like where i live where a lot of the bar owners are friends and often have meetings and hang out together and talk about all aspects of their business including Karaoke. It's no secret they can get Karaoke cheaper, the key is to always making sure that isn't an option for them because of what you bring to the table.

 

[JoeChartreuse]

I'm not going to compare us to Joe C. because from what i can tell Joe is a great host and has a great system going for him that really works. There is a lack of that locally. All i will say is We do everything we can to keep our shows entertaining, New and fresh, and Remember i own a large production company, the fact is we use a level of equipment that karaoke company's can't really compete with. Our Business cards and slogan states we have the Best Production, DJ , and Karaoke in the state and we stand by that wholeheartedly without doubt.

While I thank you for your kind words, there is no one here that can't do what I do. Not only that, but I can name a few hosts in my area who I consider BETTER than me- it's always a learning experience.

Lone, you say your area has a lack of skilled hosts, yet from many of your posts its seems that you certainly fit the bill. You've also mentioned your own longevity in this business. I see know reason- with proper salesmanship, that you wouldn't receive fees that go over the top of the scale.

This of course, would hearken back to Pro's post, but the fact is that producing a top of the line quality show is the best defense- not only against pirates, but ALL competition.

You want to wage war against pirates? Go for it. I do as well, but in my own way. I DO flag the pirate HD offers on line. I DO educate the venues in regard to the risks of piracy ( which is another way of using being disc based as a selling point, BTW). The local "KJ Network ( actually nothing more than a pretty big group of friendly competitors that help each other out) shares pirate info, and works hard to freeze them out. Keeping them from getting a foot in the door does more damage control than trying to dislodge them later- after damage has been done.

( That's another suggestion: Arrange a meet and greet with local LEGIT competitors, and see if one of these informal networks can be put together. It's not only helpful in fighting pirates, but can get you out of a jam now and then)

I want to make it clear that I DO fight piracy- but I don't make it my first priority. My FIRST priority is constantly improving my business- building my track record, and keeping fresh. That takes MOST of my time, and it seems to keep me from much pirate damage on it's own.

 

[Loneavenger]

While I thank you for your kind words, there is no one here that can't do what I do. Not only that, but I can name a few hosts in my area who I consider BETTER than me- it's always a learning experience.

Lone, you say your area has a lack of skilled hosts, yet from many of your posts its seems that you certainly fit the bill. You've also mentioned your own longevity in this business. I see know reason- with proper salesmanship, that you wouldn't receive fees that go over the top of the scale.

Well i have truly been in the karaoke business for 8 years ( and i am young, in regards to most in the business i'll give you that ). And yes, the learning never truly stops but i wouldn't consider myself an inexperienced host by any means. I think i've run karaoke in and worked in just about every situation imaginable and learned a lot along the way. I spend considerable time every week making sure that everything is fresh and creative for my crowds and i even set up special events and games for our regulars. I wouldn't consider myself inexperienced and maybe the reference i was referring to should have stated " we have a lack of hosts locally who take pride in what they do and care "

 

[Guest]

Pipe dreams.

And the pirates that are NOT working for beer money will simply become "customers" and there will be no effect.

No pipe there Chip,

Many of the pirates who did become "customers" reduced the number of systems they had in the field, some from 6 down to 1. Many those not named just folded up shop, those who were caught become legit and they are no longer a problem (in fact many are a big help in reducing others involved in piracy).

No matter how you look at it (if you look at it logically) there is a significant reduction of pirates in any area that has been hit with lawsuits and this stands up from my own and other's personal experience. I will see what difference is made business wise in Janurary when I have a second system in the field.

But the one thing I do know for sure that since the lawsuits happened in Virginia I have not had a single venue tell me that someone has come in and offered to take over my show for less money (or even the same or more money) when it was a weekly occurence BL.

 

[Guest]

Joe,

I was visited by a venue manager at one of my shows this past Tuesday, He wanted me to bring my show to his place, I discussed it with him and he told me he currently had a KJ who had a huge collection of music (too big to put in a book) but wasn't holding a crowd, I happen to know the guy running the show, he works for a well known pirate in this area (One who is already facing a lawsuit from SC but SC refused to settle with him seems they really don't want him as a customer)! Needless to say I was interested and told him after Janurary 1st I would have a second system up and running, so we got to talking about pricing. When I told him what my fee was he said that he was paying $75 and the bar tab for the KJ he had. I said, "but here you are asking me to come in and replace him"!

He said he would go to $125 if I could bring in as many people as I had at the Baja, when I told him he was still $125 short of what it would take to get my show in his place he seemed to lose interest.

I did hand him the "Sound Choice Safe Harbor" brochure as he was leaving!

 

[JoeChartreuse]

Joe,

I was visited by a venue manager at one of my shows this past Tuesday, He wanted me to bring my show to his place, I discussed it with him and he told me he currently had a KJ who had a huge collection of music (too big to put in a book) but wasn't holding a crowd, I happen to know the guy running the show, he works for a well known pirate in this area (One who is already facing a lawsuit from SC but SC refused to settle with him seems they really don't want him as a customer)! Needless to say I was interested and told him after Janurary 1st I would have a second system up and running, so we got to talking about pricing. When I told him what my fee was he said that he was paying $75 and the bar tab for the KJ he had. I said, "but here you are asking me to come in and replace him"!

He said he would go to $125 if I could bring in as many people as I had at the Baja, when I told him he was still $125 short of what it would take to get my show in his place he seemed to lose interest.

I did hand him the "Sound Choice Safe Harbor" brochure as he was leaving!

Excellent post,Steve, for many reasons!

1) The other KJ couldn't hold the crowd despite a larger library. It takes a good host, not a huge library, to be successful.

2) As stated in the past, despite debates, Steve and I have discussed our hosting styles- I KNOW why Steve can and does charge more. He's good enough to bring in the money.

3) The venue stated what they wanted to pay. In my opinion, after he blows the pirate off, he will hire another undercutter - pirate or not- because that's what he wants. There is absoloutely no reason for any decent host to compete for this venue.


4) While I might skip the "Safe Harbor" bit ( let's not go there :winkpill, I always educate a venue regarding the risks of piracy whether I'm hired or not.

Good job, Steve!

 

[Guest]

The problem is I would like to have this venue it is rather large has a friendly staff. I believe that once our local big time pirate is flushed that I will end up with this gig at my price, the only other legal KJ in the area doesn't have nearly as popular show as mine and works most nights at the local radio station and she isn't interested in adding any more shows and her pricing is the same as mine. I know this because I trained her and set her up in the business. We talk all the time and i asked her if she was interested in the Lazy Parrot (another venue that is running with the pirate that has been calling me almost once a month to come back there) she told me she wasn't interested.

 

[JoeChartreuse]

The problem is I would like to have this venue it is rather large has a friendly staff. I believe that once our local big time pirate is flushed that I will end up with this gig at my price, .

Doesn't sound like a problem at all, since you will probably get it at your price. Just a little patience...:winkpill:

 

[Guest]

I'm sorry but to some extent here you are wrong. I have worked about every venue here and have been at this a long time Pro, I know what the rates are and how they were decided and I've negotiated with a LOT of people. When it comes to WEEKLY gigs, unfortunately piracy has had a huge effect on the rates any educated bar will pay. You cannot ignore this fact and try to blame it on other factors. Some things are due to piracy and the rate bars pay is most definitely one of them

You keep repeating this claim: "piracy has a huge effect on rates" and consistently fail to make the connection.

You are certainly not at the top of what bars will pay, because you rate is lower than most karaoke rentals, and barely commensurate with the cover charge for karaoke studio venues.

Are you promoting your karaoke nights or are you just showing up and hoping "your show" will magically attract people to the bar?