$400K is not enough

[skincarekathy]

Well, it depends on how you define middle class. Middle class by definition are college-educated white-collar professionals, the majority of whom, if employed, would not qualify for EIC.

It's the equivalent of being mistreated by a cashier for using coupons properly. If it benefits the industry to change (regarding coupons), it will change. Until such time a change occurs, there is nothing wrong with using coupons.

By extension if it at some time benefits the govt to change, they will. Our government operates on consumer spending. If there is no money, there is no spending. Some group of politicians at some point decided letting the masses eat cake via EIC was an economic stimulus and here we are. Even if one were low-income and preferred not to take EIC, the tax code makes it almost impossible to do so (if left, off, it is automatically applied). Don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

[chgobob33]

Well, it depends on how you define middle class. Middle class by definition are college-educated white-collar professionals, the majority of whom, if employed, would not qualify for EIC.

I would not agree with your "definition" of middle class, so it varies. A mechanic or construction worker or factory worker making $12-$18 an hour to me would definitely be considered middle class as well as college educated white collar people. It does depend on how define "middle" and that varies. If you take the "middle" 60% of family income much of them would qualify.

From wiki one definition:
"Sociologists such as Dennis Gilbert of Hamilton College commonly divide the middle class into two sub-groups. Constituting roughly 15% to 20% of households is the upper or professional middle class consisting of highly educated, salaried professionals and managers. Constituting roughly one third of households is the lower middle class consisting mostly of semi-professionals, skilled craftsmen and lower level management"

Agreed at some point politicians put in the social engineering into the tax code and it has had intended and unintended consequences. If you have two parents there is an incentive to have unwed mothers and fathers in order to "game" the tax system and social services etc.

 

[lf5058]

In Weberian socio-economic terms, the middle class is the broad group of people who fall socio-economicaly between the working class and upper class. In the US, blue collar earners may consider themselves middle class when in fact they are working class by the classic Weberian definition. Of course, the common measures of what constitutes middle class vary significantly between cultures. In some countries, for example, a family is considered middle class if it resides in an owner-occupied property.

 

[skincarekathy]

Agreed at some point politicians put in the social engineering into the tax code and it has had intended and unintended consequences. If you have two parents there is an incentive to have unwed mothers and fathers in order to "game" the tax system and social services etc.

They are not gaming the system any more than corporations are gaming the system. It is legal to get divorced or remain unmarried. If a family is comfortable with that as a "business" decision then there are no laws against it. If that makes their method of filing their tax return more financially advantageous to them, in some cultures, that would be considered a smart move. There is certainly no incentive to be married as it stands from a taxation angle, especially if one has children. That is not the fault of the people with children, if there is a problem, it is with the law.

So long as the government incentivizes these lifestyle choices, people will use the tools available to capitalize on them.

I don't understand the disdain for the people using the programs/credits/whatever that are there. Disdain for the programs/credits/whatever? Sure.

 

[chgobob33]

There is certainly no incentive to be married as it stands from a taxation angle, especially if one has children.

There is definitely is an incentive to be married with kids once you get over that EIC threshold. Especially if one stays home there will be HUGE tax advantages. The brackets are almost doubled when they shouldn't be if only one person is working.

Its also an advantage to be married without kids since taxes are much lower, you can get tax advantaged savings, and other credits at higher incomes etc.

 

[holamelitta]

They will leave the country and take their jobcreatingness with them.

But they're already doing this...they will always be seeking to up their profits by lowering expenses, so as long as labor is significantly cheaper overseas, that's where they'll go. And they're doing it even with the tax loopholes, so that solution obviously isn't working.

Forbes recently put out their list of the richest people in America...here is some of what they're doing:

1. Bill Gates – Great philanthropist, but Microsoft also outsourced a lot of jobs overseas, and some of those factories have been criticized for inhumane working conditions.

2. Warren Buffett – Even he thinks people like him should pay more taxes. His companies have also outsourced plenty of work overseas. Fruit of the Loom, for instance, operates 51 factories, 2 of which are in the U.S. (http://socialresponsibility.fruit.com/corporate_mission.html)

3 & 4. Charles & David Koch (Koch Industries) – Almost 30% of Koch’s jobs are overseas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_Industries). The Koch brothers also donate incredible sums (many, many, MANY millions) to certain politicians and political groups. When huge companies donate that much money to politicians, I’m always skeptical…it’s not pocket change – it’s enough that it gives them significant influence over the decisions those politicians make, for fear of losing future donations.

6, 9, 10, & 11 – All members of the Sam Walton family. We all hate Walmart. The “Walmart effect†on local economies and manufacturers is well documented. They are one of the biggest reasons it is so easy to buy cheap, foreign-made products. They contribute to manufacturers going overseas - they have such a huge market share that manufacturers are willing to do almost anything in an effort to keep up with Walmart’s constant demands for lower prices.

I realize that these people all do some sort of philanthropy too (some more than others), but how did their business decisions affect the economy? Should these people REALLY be getting huge tax breaks when their companies are making these decisions (or because they are donating so much $$ to the politicians that they can't be told no)?

 

[mrs.melton08]

Actually, yes the middle class do:

Number of Children and Earned Income Credit Amount, Income Limits


1 $3,050, $35,535 ($40,545 – Married filing jointly)
2 $5,036, $40,363 ($45,373 – Married filing jointly)
3 or more $5,666, $43,352 ($48,362 – Married filing jointly

And by the way unmarried parents play all sorts of games so the one with the best income gets a big check since the other income does not count. In those cases the income amount limits for the so called "family" is even higher. Yeah Reagan screwed up royally with the EIC. Obama added the crazy 3rd kid "bonus". Its also VERY DISCRIMINATORY since if you are single it phases out at


$457 $13,460 ($18,470- Married filing jointly) which agreed IS LOW INCOME.

I would not agree with your "definition" of middle class, so it varies. A mechanic or construction worker or factory worker making $12-$18 an hour to me would definitely be considered middle class as well as college educated white collar people. It does depend on how define "middle" and that varies. If you take the "middle" 60% of family income much of them would qualify.


From wiki one definition:
"Sociologists such as Dennis Gilbert of Hamilton College commonly divide the middle class into two sub-groups. Constituting roughly 15% to 20% of households is the upper or professional middle class consisting of highly educated, salaried professionals and managers. Constituting roughly one third of households is the lower middle class consisting mostly of semi-professionals, skilled craftsmen and lower level management"

Agreed at some point politicians put in the social engineering into the tax code and it has had intended and unintended consequences. If you have two parents there is an incentive to have unwed mothers and fathers in order to "game" the tax system and social services etc.

This is the reason so many people are living in the land of stupidity and thinking that they are wealthy. SERIOUSLY a family of 4 with 2 kids and 2 adults, making $45,000 is middle class, since a family of 4 making $22,350 is poverty level, I find it impossible to think we go from poverty to middle class that quick?
Or better yet, $12 an hour is middle class. So since $7.25 is minimum wage, what do you consider those making that amount to be? Middle class can not also be the working poor.

From your same source, this is what is most important:
"Everyone wants to believe they are middle class...But this eagerness...has led the definition to be stretched like a bungee cord"

 

[kariczak]

Actually, yes the middle class do:

Number of Children and Earned Income Credit Amount, Income Limits


1 $3,050, $35,535 ($40,545 – Married filing jointly)
2 $5,036, $40,363 ($45,373 – Married filing jointly)
3 or more $5,666, $43,352 ($48,362 – Married filing jointly

And by the way unmarried parents play all sorts of games so the one with the best income gets a big check since the other income does not count. In those cases the income amount limits for the so called "family" is even higher. Yeah Reagan screwed up royally with the EIC. Obama added the crazy 3rd kid "bonus". Its also VERY DISCRIMINATORY since if you are single it phases out at


$457 $13,460 ($18,470- Married filing jointly) which agreed IS LOW INCOME.

Oh, please tell! I'm set to have by 3rd kid by the end of this year!

 

[mrs.melton08]

Oh, please tell! I'm set to have by 3rd kid by the end of this year!

EIC used to only increase its minimum for up to 2 kids, now there is an increase for the 3rd kid too.