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I honestly think that as long as you have reverence for something greater than yourself, and live life based on solid morals...then you should be fine in the eyes of that greater power.

But that's just me.
 
Its not a slightly different path. They are denying the son of God. Jesus IS God Himself, they are the same person! They are rejecting God by rejecting Jesus. The do not aknowledge that He died for thier sins as an everlasting sacrifice. HE died so that we might live. YOU HAVE to accept Jesus to enter the kingdom of heaven (eccept whening the example I gave you previously of the person who had NO knowledge whatsoever of Jesus)
 
Firefly557 said:
so Sicander your saying that if a man has no knowledge of the bible and God but believes in one god and lives his life well in accordance to his faith will go to "heaven" but anyone who knows of the bible and God but believes in God in a different form or a god's power divided between many faces (like the ancient pagan religions) wont and the way they worship the same force is completely wrong as yours is the only way to "salvation"....


In a word, Yes. And sorry pagans do not worship the same God, Ive known quite a few. One of my beast friends is one. God is not "some force" He is God. He isnt a force he is THE force. (Not starwars lol) And you seriously need to remember I am not condemning you. I am spreading the word so that you will know, the choice is yours I dont force anything on anyone. You are free to believe what you want and I am free to tell you your wrong. Thats the essence of free speach. If you choose to not listen to my words then you have made your choice.
 
Interesting. I wouldn't want to be "one and the same" with my father....but then again, my father isn't all knowing and all powerful.

I like how you mention free speech, Sicander. I was thinking earlier that all of us here are truly lucky to be living in a society where we can have a frank and honest discussion about our differing views of religion, without fear of prosecution.
 
Damm said:
Interesting. I wouldn't want to be "one and the same" with my father....but then again, my father isn't all knowing and all powerful.

I like how you mention free speech, Sicander. I was thinking earlier that all of us here are truly lucky to be living in a society where we can have a frank and honest discussion about our differing views of religion, without fear of prosecution.

If you read back I made an attempt at explaining the holy trinity thing it might help clear som things up. And you are right we are very lucky to be having this conversation. Ive have friends doing missionary work in countries that if the Government new that they were christian they would be killed. There are alot of places like that left in the world. And if you follow the non main stream news you will notice that that is now changing, at least in the middle east. Go saudi arabia!!!!! women voting for the first time ever! Freedom is sprouting like weeds over there right now but you would never know, the news never reports on it.
 
Djeuve said:
There is something I feel uncomfortable with when it comes to Christianity. It is supposed to be a worship of God and all, but (not so much anymore) people pray to Saints as though they were lesser Gods of the Christian pantheon...

Some people even pray to Jesus.

I realise that since people can only think and visualise something with a certain limit, they need something they can see so they can pray to it...but doesn't that border on worshiping Idols?

Let me stop here and say I'm not trying to prove some point, rather, I am asking. I really want to know.

So, knowing that, a lot of religions pray to A God, even if that God is not quite the same in all...but, would that matter as long as you keep good faith in that God, or in some cases, a set of moral values?

In that way, then it would not be condemning Buddhists and Muslims, or people in the far reaches of the world who have never even heard of the Christian faith, straight to hell... wouldn't it?

That's why I feel uncomfortable when I think about choosing a faith... I'd be afraid I'd just think: "Hah! I'M in the right one, and YOU'RE going to Hell!!" Just sounds unfair and unbalanced to me...arrogant to some extent...

OK, let me try and field this. I am going from memory, so if I say something inaccurate, and anyone sees it, please correct me.

The Bible is made up of two main parts, the Old Testament, and the New Testament. Before The Old Testament is the world of God BEFORE the coming of Jesus Christ, and both Jews and Christians believe it and follow it. In the Old Testament, among the many things that happened, there is a prophecy of the coming of God. Jews believe in and acknowledge Jesus as a prophet, but do not believe that He was the son of God. Christians do, and it is at this part that Jews and Christians part ways.

I am a Catholic, which was the first Christian Faith. According to my faith, Jesus assigned Saint Peter to be the first Pope. Jesus told Saint Peter

From Matthew 16:18-19
"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."


Catholics believe that Jesus named Peter the first Pope of the Church, and gave him the power to create Church Law. Further, God will make whatever the Church dictates happen.

The Greek Orthodox church is essentially the same as the original Catholic Church, except they do not accept the idea of the Pope being able to make religious law. They do not recognize the covenant between Jesus made with Saint Peter. They also never changed many of the original Catholic Church laws, and so they are they follow the church's more, for lack of a better word, "stricter" rules. For example, I believe they still say mass in Latin. Catholics believe that as the times changes, so much God's Laws here on Earth to better reflect the times, and have "Vatican Councils", which are pretty rare events, to "update" Church Law.

So, you had the original Church, The Catholic Church, and then you have the Greek Orthodox Church. Those are the first two forms of Christianity. All the other branches of Christianity, such as the Lutherans and the Baptists, all split from the Catholic Church for various reasons. Essentially, all Christians believe as Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour, but believe different things about how we should live here on earth. As a Catholic, I strongly believe what Pope John Paul II said, which was, "The Church is PERFECT. It is the people within the Church that make it imperfect". In essence, what he was saying was that the Catholic Church as an institution is PERFECT, but many evil, corrupt, and somtimes downright inept, people have run the Church, and it is they who have done wrong, not the Church. As I said, I agree with that. There has been much corruption, and many bad decisions made on the part of the Catholic Church, but again, I believe the individuals make these mistakes in the name of the Church are to blame, not the Church itself.

In regards to Saints, when you "pray to a Saint", you are not doing so to worship him or her. You are asking them, since they are closer to God, to go before God and petition God in your favor. It is sort of like "having a friend in a high place who has the ear of God" to put in a "good word" for you. It is not meant to replace God in ANY WAY, and while praying to God directly is certainly never wrong, the Church believes that some people may have trouble so doing so. Saints are humans that lived lives worthy of respect, and served as examples for their fellow Christians. In no way, shape or form are you meant to pray to a Saint to grant you anything other than "putting in a good word" to God. It is the equivalent of asking your family and friends to pray for you when you are sick. You are asking the Saint to pray for you as well. Nothing more, nothing less.

In regards to praying to Jesus, we Catholics believe in the "Holy Trinity", which is God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We believe that God is in heaven, He manifested himself here on Earth through His Son Jesus, and also lives in spirit form as the Holy Spirit. You often here "God sent the Holy Spirit", which means God came down to earth in spirit form, and the manifested Himself as the "Holy Spirit". So, when you pray to Jesus, you are actually praying to God, since Jesus was God on earth. We also call this the "Holy Mystery", and we do not profess to understand it fully.

I love my Church, and I find it's formality to be comforting. I was a "self professed atheist" for a while and I have to say, after not going to church for 20 years, and then going back to the same thing, it was very comforting. Not much has changed in 20 years, and that made me feel warm inside. :D

The "Official Catholic Handbook" is called the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
 
Now none of you get me wrong I have nothing agaist catholics. We are all Gods children. I don't think some of thier ideas are right but that doesn't mean I think they are going to hell, quite the contrary there is some order and law in catholocism that modern christianity lacks. We are to laid back at times and it causes many of us to slip. Cough Cough TBN cough Tammy Fay Cough Cough. We have our bad eggs too. And GoingNova is right, there is nothing wrong with the form and function of the catholic church but somtimes those laws can open doors for bad people. Everyone Christian or Catholic, just needs to remember that the important thing, the most important thing is the personal relationship we have with Christ. The form and funtion wont get you there, it is Jesus alone that can get you into the kingdom of heaven, form and ritual just help people stay the path.
 
Those are great posts. We need some Jews, Muslims, and people of eastern religions on this forum so I can learn all about their religions too. This is fun.
 
hey nova i got a question that i have never understood, but never really wonderd about till i read your post. ok you said that saints pretty much 'put in a good word for you'? right? well what about purgatory, dont cathloics belive in that? how can they put in a word for you if they are in purgatory???
 
Sicander after reading some of your posts it seems like your completely dismissing some of the other religions apart from Catholics and Christians. If you actually took a look at pagans you'd realise that pagans and christians on in some ways similar.

...and what if I don't want to be Gods child??

I mean I'm not totally against Christianity. But I have to admit I find the whole adam and eve and the rest of the storie completely made up. I'm not trying to offended I've just always believe that the bible was made up from some people who had nothing better to do and thought hey why not make a holy book and start a religion.

I guess science is starting to effect me... I jsut don't see how a man has the power to do any of the things in the bible, Jesus may have well been just a really nice man who helped people and somehow got caught up into being God's son.

I'm not sure if I'm making sense here it's hard to put some of it into words...
 
Mattok said:
hey nova i got a question that i have never understood, but never really wonderd about till i read your post. ok you said that saints pretty much 'put in a good word for you'? right? well what about purgatory, dont cathloics belive in that? how can they put in a word for you if they are in purgatory???

Purgatory, I LOVE THIS CONCEPT! It is quite simple, purgatory is a place where you go to prepare for your eventual meeting with God in heaven. It is not HELL, and it is not HEAVEN. It is also temporary. You go there to amend for your less than perfect life. The reason I love this concept is, well, it just seems so fair to me. There are good people who live their lives very closely to the way Jesus lived, let's say like Mother Theresa. Then you have people like me, who are basically good people, but are far from Mother Theresa. According to Catholic Dogma, I would go to purgatory when I die, to learn the error of my ways, and cleanse myself in preparation to meet God.

So, just because you are in Purgatory, does not mean you will be there forever, and when people pray for you, they are praying that you will meet with God as soon as possible. In fact, there is a day called "All Souls Days", which is dedicated to all of the souls in Purgatory, while they wait to get to Heaven.
 
Nightwolf04 said:
Sicander after reading some of your posts it seems like your completely dismissing some of the other religions apart from Catholics and Christians. If you actually took a look at pagans you'd realise that pagans and christians on in some ways similar.

...and what if I don't want to be Gods child??

Well, as a Christian, I do "dismiss" other religions as well. By believing in Christianity, I pretty much have to. That does not mean I do not respect other religions. I respect everyone's right to believe what they want, but I of course dismiss any other religion other than Christianity as incorrect. If you don't do that, then how strong is your faith? That is not to say that I think myself better than a Jew or a Muslim. I do not. I just do not think they are correct in their relgious beliefs. We disagree, that is all.

I mean I'm not totally against Christianity. But I have to admit I find the whole adam and eve and the rest of the storie completely made up. I'm not trying to offended I've just always believe that the bible was made up from some people who had nothing better to do and thought hey why not make a holy book and start a religion.

Adam and Eve is not meant to be taken literally. It is a representation of the creation of man. As far as the Bible being made up, well, you have to have faith. Might I suggest you read the "Bible Code", a very interesting book.

I guess science is starting to effect me... I jsut don't see how a man has the power to do any of the things in the bible, Jesus may have well been just a really nice man who helped people and somehow got caught up into being God's son.

I'm not sure if I'm making sense here it's hard to put some of it into words...

For me, it falls back to my first post. Why would Jesus and his followers let themselves get horribly tortured and put to death back if they did not believe. Anyway, I have to run off to work now. Stay well. ;)
 
True but still there is no certain prove that Jesus did actually exsist so he might not have gone through all that suffering.

But you make good points and I'm glad you don't completely ignore other people's views on religion. :)
 
Nightwolf04 said:
True but still there is no certain prove that Jesus did actually exsist so he might not have gone through all that suffering.

I do think there is historical proof that he existed. The Romans kept excellent records, and there is documentation of his excecution. I have to research it further and get back to you. ;)
 
Sicander said:
In a word, Yes. And sorry pagans do not worship the same God, Ive known quite a few. One of my beast friends is one. God is not "some force" He is God. He isnt a force he is THE force. (Not starwars lol) And you seriously need to remember I am not condemning you. I am spreading the word so that you will know, the choice is yours I dont force anything on anyone. You are free to believe what you want and I am free to tell you your wrong. Thats the essence of free speach. If you choose to not listen to my words then you have made your choice.

I didn't mean "some force" i mean THE Force (like life stream but not....), God is just the way you perceive it and all the other religions give that Force a different face and another way to see it. there is something about the Christian faith that anytime someone strongly believes in it, it seems to me that they are condemning everyone that doesn't believe. i think it may be because of this Hell business which seems to me like a type of blackmail to get people to believe and want to save their souls, dont get me wrong i have nothing against Christianity but i never did get the hell aspect...punishment is great but shouldn't the best punishment be to have to live again and not get to be with that great force....being part of it or just being with it.
 
Firefly557 said:
I didn't mean "some force" i mean THE Force (like life stream but not....), God is just the way you perceive it and all the other religions give that Force a different face and another way to see it. there is something about the Christian faith that anytime someone strongly believes in it, it seems to me that they are condemning everyone that doesn't believe. i think it may be because of this Hell business which seems to me like a type of blackmail to get people to believe and want to save their souls, dont get me wrong i have nothing against Christianity but i never did get the hell aspect...punishment is great but shouldn't the best punishment be to have to live again and not get to be with that great force....being part of it or just being with it.

I have had this disagreement in another forum. It was not on religion, but argument was the same. In answer to Christians thinking they are "condemning" everyone else, I would have to disagree. Your "Firebrand" Christians might, but your everyday Christians don't. I believe in Hell. I believe in the Bible. I believe that God has rules, and if you don't follow them, GOD MAY PUT YOU IN HELL. Not me, not a minister or a priest, but GOD. God makes that decision, not me. It is not my place to judge anyone, period. That is the TRUE CHRISTIAN WAY. Jesus Himself said quite plainly, "Let he without sin cast the first stone.", meaning, unless you are perfect, which no one is, do not judge others.

All of that being said, because I think my religion is right, and the other religions are wrong, does not make me judgemental. This is not directed at you at all, but I think part of the problem today is people are afraid to stand up for what they believe. They see people doing things they know are wrong, and are too afraid of being labeled "judgemental". Now, you read what I just wrote, it is not my place to judge, but that does not mean I can not say that when two people practice S&M, there is something wrong with them. :laughing3 If you want to argue that point, start another thread. My point is, I am not being judgemental when I point out something that is obviously wrong. I am not being judgemental because I believe the religion I follow is the "correct" one. The only harm is when a religion says, I am the right religion, and then starts chopping off people's heads. Other than that, I believe you are free to practice any religion you choose, but if you ask me, mine is the right one. ;)

I hope all of that came out right.
 
Nightwolf04 said:
Ok Nova impress me then :) then I might change my view yet again

First of all, NEW MEMBERS, I AM FAR FROM A BIBLE THUMPER! HECK, I MISS GOING TO CHURCH MORE THAN I GO! I was just asked some religious questions, and answered them to the best of my ability.

Anyway, a very quick google search on Jesus produced the following, which was cut and pasted.

Historical evidence concerning Jesus. There are a number of ancient historians, writers, and educators whom we could introduce regarding the historic reality of a man named Jesus, the founder of the movement that bears his name, Christianity. These individuals are highly recognized as being reputable and reliable in their various writings and are extensively quoted even by agnostic and even atheistic learned people today.

Flavius Josephus
. Josephus was born in either 37 or 38 A. D. When he was 26 years old, he took upon himself the mission of seeking to improve the relations between the Jews and the Romans. He was a historian who was highly respected by the Roman world. He was held in such high regard that he was allowed to accompany Titus when Titus led the Romans Army against Jerusalem (70 A. D.). Josephus wrote several books that have come down to us today, History of the Jewish War (seven different books) and Jewish Antiquities, to name some. Josephus was not a Christian himself. We read:


"At that time lived Jesus, a wise man, if he may be called a man; for he performed many wonderful works. He was a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure….And when Pilate, at the instigation of the chief men among us, had condemned him to the cross, they who before had conceived an affection for him did not cease to adhere to him. For on the third day he appeared to them alive again, the divine prophets having foretold these and many other wonderful things concerning him. And the sect of the Christians, so called from him, subsists at this time" (Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 1).

In all fairness, many among scholars today are claiming that the above just quoted was not originally written by Josephus but is an interpolation. However, the passage is present in every copy of which we have knowledge, just as quoted. The above passage was twice quoted by Eusebius as early as 315 A. D. Another passage in which Josephus mentions the historic Jesus is found in Antiquities, Book 20, Chapter 9, and Section 1. This second reference has received comparatively little rejection. After exhaustive research, it could very well be that very early on, a copyist dressed up Josephus' first statement in an attempt to make it more favorable to Jesus. The passage is found in the context of references to sedition, before and after the passage. The above quotation does make reference to, "the sect of the Christians, so called from him, subsists at this time." This is probably, no doubt, part of the pure text, if the text were doctored. However, even if we allow for the early changing of the text, most would have to agree that Josephus does historically allude to Jesus.

Carius Cornelius Tacitus (many of his writings were about 100 A. D.). Tacitus was a Roman historian who reportedly hated Christians. In writing about the life of Nero and the accusation that he burned the city of Rome and blamed it on the Christians, Tacitus says:

"…Nero procured others to be accused, and inflicted exquisite punishment upon those people, who were in abhorrence for their crimes, and were commonly known by the name of Christians. They had their denomination from Christus (Christ, dm.), who in the reign of Tibertius was put to death as a criminal by the procurator Pontius Pilate….At first they were only apprehended who confessed themselves of that sect; afterwards a vast multitude discovered by them, all of which were condemned, not so much for the crime of burning the city, as for their enmity to mankind. Their executions were so contrived as to expose them to derision and contempt. Some were covered with the skins of wild beasts, and torn to pieces by dogs; some were crucified; others having been daubed over with combustible materials, were set up as lights in the night time, and thus burned to death…" (Tacitus, Annals, 15, 44).

Notice that while Tacitus had no regard for the Christians of whom he wrote, he does mention Christ as being the founder of their belief.

Suetonius (Roman historian, born about 88 A. D.). While Suetonius does not mention Christ by name, he does refer to Christianity. This reference and many more that could be supplied proves the early origin of Christianity and details that are congruous with the biblical account. Hear his brief statement in also writing about the life of Nero whose reign began in 54 and ended in 68 A. D.:

"Punishments were also inflicted on the Christians, a sect professing a new and mischievous religious belief" (Suetonius, The Twelve Caesars, pg. 197).

Pliny the younger, born in 61 A. D. Pliny was sent by the Emperor Trajan to Bithynia in 112 as propraetor. Having found a large number of Christians there, he wrote back to Trajan to get information on how to deal with them. Pliny says to Trajan:

"It is my rule, Sire, to refer to you in matters where I am uncertain. For who can better direct my hesitation or instruct my ignorance? I was never present at any trial of Christians; therefore I do not know what are the customary penalties or investigations, and what limits are observed…." Under specific item number five of his letter, Pliny wrote: "…All who denied that they were or had been Christians I considered should be discharged, because they called upon the gods at my dictation and did reverence, with incense and wine, to your image which I had ordered to be brought forward for this purpose, together with the statutes of the deities; and especially because they cursed Christ, a thing which, it is said, genuine Christians cannot be induced to do…."

Under item number six, he continued:

"…Others named by the informer first said that they were Christians and then denied it; declaring that they had been but were so no longer, some having recanted three years or more before and one or two as long as twenty years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods and cursed Christ…."

Concerned reader, as seen in the foregoing, there is no doubt that Christianity had its beginning in the First Century and that Jesus Christ is its founder. In addition to the secular writings quoted above, why should the twenty-six books of the New Testament be discounted as establishing the historicity of Jesus? "Jesus" or "Christ" is mentioned specifically in twenty-six of the books. Third John, "Jesus" and "Christ" absent) does imply Jesus (vs. 7). These books cover a critical time period of about 56 through 96 A. D. and involve ten different authors. The matter most valuable about these twenty-six books is that they have been subjected to more tests to determine authenticity than any other books (canonicity).

In closing, a man named Jesus Christ really and actually lived. This is established from secular history. He is presented as the founder of the movement that bears his name, Christianity. The Bible does more, however, than simply present the historicity of a man named Jesus (click on, "Jesus, His Identity" to read more). I shall conclude this study by inserting the conversation between Jesus, his disciples, and especially the statements of the apostle Peter:

"13: When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14: And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15: He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16: And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17: And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18: And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19: And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 16).

That was from a quick Google search. I will try to do a better one later. Now, I am off to get ready for work! ;)


 
Lol very good Nova and impressive too for the quick search. So jesus might be real...but theres still the might...really because even with all of this there still if no real proof otherwise there wouldn't be people saying there isn't :)
 
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