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ericlater

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Well, the first part of my plan to fight piracy has fallen into place relatively quickly. I have secured the cooperation of at least two other local KJ's to work with me.

However, they have posed some really important questions that they feel must be answered before we can successfully go forward. And their questioning falls into three general categories.

A. What can we say or give to the venue owners that will produce substantial concerns on their part about who is doing their karaoke show(s)?

B. How much help might we reasonable expect from Sound Choice, directly and/or indirectly?

C. How do we make a case to other legit KJ's that will get them to join in our efforts?

Specifically I've been asked:
1) when might SC initiate actions in our area?
2) what would be the legal status of a venue named by SC in one of their lawsuits if the accused KJ, particularly a "John Doe", immediately "disappears" and never gets served any supoena?
3) what is the situation for the venue if the KJ acknowledges guilt and settles up?
4) why would SC pursue KJ's who have discs when it would be much more fruitful to simply pursue KJ's who have absolutely no discs and/or multi-riggers who don't have discs for every rig?

And, if nothing else, my associates are concerned that if we are trying to convince other KJ's who we know own discs to join us in our efforts, we don't want scare them off because they may realize that they are not exactly 1:1.

We believe that if someone is substantially invested in a library of discs that they should feel comfortable joining in with us and should not become concerned about raising their profile because they may not exactly be 1:1 themselves.

Isn't the real problem those who got their libraries on loaded HD's for not much more than the cost of the drive itself?
 
Well for one, I would not expect anything from SC. They protect THEIR house not yours ( ours).

It would be unreasonable to expect them to do any more than what they are already doing. And it is having and will have a direct effect. That's good enough for me.

They don't owe us anything but maybe a thank you for buying their discs. Expecting anything else is like expecting the gov't to fix EVERYTHING !!! It will NOT happen EVER!!!

When might SC file in your area? Sorry, that makes alot of sense letting all the thiefs know when they might be targeted.

You don't want to PRODUCE substantial concern, you want to EASE concern for any who MIGHT wondering about their kj's/dj's etc being legit. ( i knew what you meant, just wanted to clarify). I know for a fact that alot of venue owners do NOT care at all!!! I work for one!!

They might care after they get named in a suit though.

There are some who will be willing to listen, those are the ones you want to talk to. Forget the rest. Education and awareness, is the key here. If it can be attached to them having or not having a liquor license, I guarantee they will listen. Otherwise, good luck!

Lee
 
Mantis1 said:
1) Well for one, I would not expect anything from SC. They protect THEIR house not yours ( ours).
.

2) They don't owe us anything but maybe a thank you for buying their discs. Expecting anything else is like expecting the gov't to fix EVERYTHING !!! It will NOT happen EVER!!!

3) Education and awareness, is the key here. If it can be attached to them having or not having a liquor license, I guarantee they will listen. Otherwise, good luck!

Lee
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Lee, three VERY valid points here.

The first 2 are of course, correct. With all my Bit**ing and moaning, the fact is SC is running a business. Though I may not like their methods, that is what they are doing. I do happen to agree with Kurt that no one should EXPECT them to be fighting piracy- It's not their job, nor their goal. It's those that believe otherwise that cause me to gripe.


The third is a truly impressive idea. Attaching legality of entertainment to the liquor license would mean that the governing body ( state / town/county- whatever) would be involved in the verification. It will never happen, but it's a pretty good idea! I already make a point of all venue owners that I come in contact with in regard to how to identify a possible pirate, and the possible consequences of hiring one and then being caught.

Of course, me being me, I also advise that they hire disc based hosts. Hey, that's the way I roll...:sqcool::sqwink:

Just like SC, in the end, I'm in business to be profitable...


ANyway, thanks for a good post.
 
Mantis1 said:
When might SC file in your area? Sorry, that makes alot of sense letting all the thiefs know when they might be targeted.
Click to expand...

What would be wrong with letting everyone, thieves and venues, know what SC is doing and letting them all think they are in the "next" targeted area?

And what, again, is the purpose of the SC suits and audits and etc?
 
ericlater said:
What would be wrong with letting everyone, thieves and venues, know what SC is doing and letting them all think they are in the "next" targeted area?

And what, again, is the purpose of the SC suits and audits and etc?
Click to expand...

I don't think there's anything wrong with them knowing something terrible is coming, but I see his point it gives them a chance to get out of dodge or fly straight thus avoiding penalties. Either way though it can't be a bad thing if they do either get out or fix their situation.
 
If they dodge bullet , so to speak, they will just come back ( or continue) thinking they got away with something.

Hit them when they don't see it coming and it will have a greater effect ! Plus SC gets what they deserve = $.

No brainer for me!

Lee
 
Mantis1 said:
If they dodge bullet , so to speak, they will just come back ( or continue) thinking they got away with something.

Hit them when they don't see it coming and it will have a greater effect ! Plus SC gets what they deserve = $.

No brainer for me!

Lee
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I'm not sure what it means to "dodge a bullet" or how specifically that is done? And how do you "come back" after "dodging a bullet"?
 
ericlater said:
I'm not sure what it means to "dodge a bullet" or how specifically that is done? And how do you "come back" after "dodging a bullet"?
Click to expand...


It means that if one knows SC or someone similar is in the area, a KJ can delete all SC tracks ( after copying them into storage), wait for the storm to pass, than just re-load them. Bullet (SC) dodged and the unloaded tracks "come back". :sqcool:
 
Okay!

So, as I said back at the beginning when I was pointing out flaws in the SC strategy, what if a KJ just deletes all of his illegal SC tracks today, before SC shows up?

He probably has 20,000 other illegal tracks to play around with?

Except, I do know of some rigs that have solely SC in their catalogs, so I don't know if they have other "stuff" tucked away, out of sight? If not, they're stuck if they had to delete SC, but those with 50000 or more tracks will survive without SC
 
One little problem there though!

He won't know if there is someone from sound choice in the audience with a camera phone taking a picture of the screen everytime a Sound Choice logo comes up!:sqeek:

Even if he later deletes them the evidence is still there that he had them, and unless he scrubs the hard drive or purchases a new one the deleted files can still be pulled up!:sqwink:

With other companies following Sound Choices lead (and they are) how long will it be before all that remains is All Hits and Nu-tech? And who knows have many of the "other Manus" are going to be picking up the defunct labels?:sqbiggrin:

In the end it will be cheaper for the pirates to either get out of the business or buy the disc to cover thier song files, either way it works for me! :sqlaugh:
 
Thunder said:
ericlater said:
Okay!

So, as I said back at the beginning when I was pointing out flaws in the SC strategy, what if a KJ just deletes all of his illegal SC tracks today, before SC shows up?

He probably has 20,000 other illegal tracks to play around with?

Except, I do know of some rigs that have solely SC in their catalogs, so I don't know if they have other "stuff" tucked away, out of sight? If not, they're stuck if they had to delete SC, but those with 50000 or more tracks will survive without SC
Click to expand...
One little problem there though!

He won't know if there is someone from sound choice in the audience with a camera phone taking a picture of the screen everytime a Sound Choice logo comes up!

Then the accused is asked why there is no evidence of any SC tracks having been on his existing drive. He explains that in selling the SC library, the deal included the HD that the tracks were on!

Even if he later deletes them the evidence is still there that he had them, and unless he scrubs the hard drive or purchases a new one the deleted files can still be pulled up!

With other companies following Sound Choices lead (and they are) how long will it be before all that remains is All Hits and Nu-tech? And who knows have many of the "other Manus" are going to be picking up the defunct labels?

In the end it will be cheaper for the pirates to either get out of the business or buy the disc to cover thier song files, either way it works for me!
Click to expand...
I've been criticized for my "what if's" but I'll accept your "what if" and add one unlikely "what if"

Let's say the an accused person eliminated all SC tracks from their show last Thanksgiving and put the new library on a new drive that was purchased for $99! However, the weekend before that he was videographed displaying SC's logo 20 times.

Now let's say that the accused appears in court and the court wants to know why there are NO SC tracks on the drive, whatsoever?

The accused replies: With all the negativity being brought about by SC, I decided to sell all my SC discs, Your Honor, and so I got rid of them. The deal included the drive that the discs were on so that the new owner wouldn't have to rip them all over again.

And here's a copy of the song catalog that I have been using since last thanksgiving.

Of course, if I would have known I was going to end up in court anyway, I wouldn't haven't bothered selling them!
 
ericlater said:
I've been criticized for my "what if's" but I'll accept your "what if" and add one unlikely "what if"

Let's say the an accused person eliminated all SC tracks from their show last Thanksgiving and put the new library on a new drive that was purchased for $99! However, the weekend before that he was videographed displaying SC's logo 20 times.

Now let's say that the accused appears in court and the court wants to know why there are NO SC tracks on the drive, whatsoever?

The accused replies: With all the negativity being brought about by SC, I decided to sell all my SC discs, Your Honor, and so I got rid of them. The deal included the drive that the discs were on so that the new owner wouldn't have to rip them all over again.

And here's a copy of the song catalog that I have been using since last thanksgiving.

Of course, if I would have known I was going to end up in court anyway, I wouldn't haven't bothered selling them!
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And Sound Choice would ask in discovery "WHO DID YOU SELL THEM TO?" Then calls that person in as a witness or simply takes depositions from them. Oh and by the way here is a subpoena ducas tecum for your hard drive and disc that you purchased from Eric!

Refuse to answer and you are in contempt, and you will also be found quilty of the infringement by default! This isn't a game and the Federal court doesn't play!
 
JoeChartreuse said:
....And it will never go to court anyway....:sqcool:
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No it won't as long as the pirate KJs either settle or get out of the business!:sqwink:
 
Thunder said:
And Sound Choice would ask in discovery "WHO DID YOU SELL THEM TO?" Then calls that person in as a witness or simply takes depositions from them. Oh and by the way here is a subpoena ducas tecum for your hard drive and disc that you purchased from Eric!

Refuse to answer and you are in contempt, and you will also be found quilty of the infringement by default! This isn't a game and the Federal court doesn't play!
Click to expand...

I sold them at my neighbors yard sale. He was a nice man who said he was in town for the day visiting relatives. I didn't catch his name and he paid cash. :sqwink:
 
Bazza said:
I sold them at my neighbors yard sale. He was a nice man who said he was in town for the day visiting relatives. I didn't catch his name and he paid cash. :sqwink:
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Now you just got your neighbor subpoenaed to a federal court trial, is he going to lie for you?:sqbiggrin:

And now we are back to the "proof that you displayed them" and you are left with "I didn't catch his name and he paid cash." no proof that you actually ever owned them, doesn't leave you in a great position!
 
I would be quite comfortable as the defendant in any of the scenarios regarding the disposal of my SC discs

Sold at yard sale, sold through word of mouth, sold on Craig's list. But that's me.

Push comes to shove, I temporarily retired and sold my whole rig! Nothing's left, not even a cable! That's my prerogative as the owner and I don't have to explain much more.

Or worse case, though unlikely, I lose. SC gets a $250,000 judgment and I declare bankruptcy!
 
ericlater said:
I would be quite comfortable as the defendant in any of the scenarios regarding the disposal of my SC discs

Sold at yard sale, sold through word of mouth, sold on Craig's list. But that's me.

Push comes to shove, I temporarily retired and sold my whole rig! Nothing's left, not even a cable! That's my prerogative as the owner and I don't have to explain much more.

Or worse case, though unlikely, I lose. SC gets a $250,000 judgment and I declare bankruptcy!
Click to expand...

And either way you lose! Sounds to me like a great lose-lose situation!:sqwink:

Now come out of retirement sooner than three years from the date of the final order in the case and see what happens and how quickly it would happen! You have to purchase ALL new music and equipment, otherwise you would be up on purgery charges for lying to a federal judge (if suddenly you showed back up on the market with the same gear and files) And for three years Sound Choice has the option of punching the button and having you almost instantly back in front of the same judge! So the dog and pony show starts all over again!

The other problem you would have is once again if Sound Choice had evidence that you were displaying their logo at your show just prior to your retiring and selling off everything, at the yard sale, on craigslist, or ebay, you still would not be able to produce any evidence that your files were legit and for that matter any evidence at all. So once again through the perponderence of the evidence you would be considered guilty by default!

Sorry but it is still a lose lose situation for the pirate!:sqbiggrin:
 
Thunder said:
No it won't as long as the pirate KJs either settle or get out of the business!:sqwink:
Click to expand...

.. or realize that SC can't really do anything to them....Well, maybe make'em look bad, but a pirate does anyway. :sqrolleyes::sqlaugh:
 
Thunder said:
And either way you lose! Sounds to me like a great lose-lose situation!:sqwink:

Now come out of retirement sooner than three years from the date of the final order in the case and see what happens and how quickly it would happen! You have to purchase ALL new music and equipment, otherwise you would be up on purgery charges for lying to a federal judge (if suddenly you showed back up on the market with the same gear and files) And for three years Sound Choice has the option of punching the button and having you almost instantly back in front of the same judge! So the dog and pony show starts all over again!

The other problem you would have is once again if Sound Choice had evidence that you were displaying their logo at your show just prior to your retiring and selling off everything, at the yard sale, on craigslist, or ebay, you still would not be able to produce any evidence that your files were legit and for that matter any evidence at all. So once again through the perponderence of the evidence you would be considered guilty by default!

Sorry but it is still a lose lose situation for the pirate!:sqbiggrin:
Click to expand...

The problem with your responses, Thunder, is that you keep making up the scenarios, or assumptions about the scenarios, and the facts and YOU keep handing out the verdicts.


"Bazza" said:
I sold them at my neighbors yard sale. He was a nice man who said he was in town for the day visiting relatives. I didn't catch his name and he paid cash
Click to expand...

You, Thunder, assumed many things about that transaction. So let's simplify it and leave it that Bazza sold the discs and Hard Drive at his own garage sale!

But what you assumed about Bazza's originally stated scenario is interesting and revolved around one or more of the following assumptions on your part:
The neighbor didn't have a garage sale
Or if you accepted that the neighbor did have a garage sale you assumed that Bazza did not sell CD's to a man from out of town at that sale, along with a HD that had all of those CD's ripped to!
That the neighbor would be committing perjury if he testified that Bazza sold a HD and assorted CD's at the yard sale!

How do you, Thunder, know that any of the above is not a fact?
 
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