Fighting Back

[Guest]

ok So based on this statement, what is the price to buy your entire catalogue? I've purchased other manu's entire catalogues in the past directly from them. I don't see anything on your site for the entire collection.

Thanks

I will say that I just purchased 100 disc (not even close to the entire library) for less than $1,000 and this included the shipping! But I was picking and choosing to cut down as much as possible on repeat songs already in my library or to replace songs in my library that were of lesser quality than SC songs!

I would say if you were selective that you could put together 98% of the SC library for around $3500!

 

[spam4us]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Much appreciated.

I was hoping that Kurt J. Slep, CEO, Sound Choice would answer this.

Based on technology today, it it possible to buy all of your songs without any duplicates? I don't really care what number disc a song is on. How many unique songs are in your catalog and what would the price be?

 

[jclaydon]

Under the current system - ie buying cdg discs- it is virutally impossible to not get duplicates.

For example, I have somewhere between 9,000-10,000 songs on just over 400 discs. Out of those maybe 8,000 are unique tracks. I couldn't tell you how many copies of the "devil went down to georgia" i have.. I lost count at 6.

However soundchoice is planning on releasing new sets in a high quality mp3+g format without ANY duplicates. The only downside is they haven't released them yet most likely because getting the proper liscensing takes a lot of time. I have asked several times and they keep saying "maybe next month". Here's hoping..


-James

 

[Guest]

Even being as picky as I am (and I was putting my list together for 4 weeks before I ordered) checking every song on each disc I was purchasing against what I already had and discounting the disc I purchased to replace damaged disc and disc I purchased for songs I had on "other Brands" that I wanted SC versions for, I still ended up with about an 18% duplicate ratio!

 

[Sound Choice]

I sent Jokerswild a list of all the discs that we are currently supporting, including discs that we relicensed and brought back. I also sent him a chart of the discounts for various volume levels of purchases. We also did an email blast today to those whom we had identified in our database as "KJs" with the same information. If you would like to receive this information, please fill in the CONTACT US page with your request on the SoundChoice.com site or call us at 1-800-788-4487.

And WALLOFSOUND is right in pointing out that we are not bringing back ALL the discs we had previously - believe me if we did it would be cost prohibitive to us and a waste of money to you. Many of the discs would not have any songs that you would even remember. We let them expire because they were not selling or may have never sold well.

We did some research with some hosts who did have very large libraries (over 30,000 songs) and had tracked the songs sung over a 3 year period during an average of over 10 shows a week. Out of 30,000 titles, only 2500 were EVER sung ONCE and only 1500 of those were sung more than once. So based on our research and input from some hosts, REALISTICALLY you can run a very good show with 5000 unique titles, which is about what we have available now. When we release all the discs in our "GEM" Series of MP3+Gs, we will have about 7200 unique titles (no duplicates) in that series. We have not gotten final word on all our licenses, so I have not yet done the comparison between those titles and what we have on CDG to determine exactly how many song titles we will have between CDGs and MP3+Gs.

We hope to launch the first set of 3000 songs (named the "DIAMOND") at the end of March. This series will be similar to the range of genres and years of hits that we had in the Bricks and Foundations. As a matter of fact, the entire 1500 songs in the Foundation 1&2 and Bricks 1-5 are included in the set. This might be a disappointment to those who already have all the discs in those sets, but remember MANY (MANY) hosts out there do not have any discs to back up their computer systems, even though they have all the songs. So, we tried to offer a really good starting set.

Next, we will have 4 sets of 600 songs that are "add-ons" to the DIAMOND that we are calling EMERALD 1through 4. (sort of like the Bricks were to the Foundations - similar range of genres and covering the same span of years). Finally, we will have different sets in the "Sapphire Series" which are genre oriented sets of 300 songs each. There will be 5-7 sets (still working on the details, sorry, but it is a MASSIVE undertaking for the licensing) concentrated in genres.

The theory is that a host can begin with the 3000 songs in the Diamond and maybe add a genre specific Sapphire set (for example Country or POP depending on his particular audience) so he will have a good start to begin his LEGAL hosting career. Then they could add on (without duplicates) additional sets as their budget or need for more songs allows or requires. We also hope to be able to provide some term payments so a new set-up would cash flow itself. We also hope to be releasing 8-16 songs a month depending on the quality of new songs out there and how quickly we can license songs. We are not going to get in a "race" to release new songs just to release something so, we will probably lag the market a bit but put out more solid hits and of course what we believe to be superior quality.

Kurt

I need to stay off here so I can work on getting all this done, but the basic ideas have been laid outhere.


We also will be doing promotions through KIAA and ADJA (Thanks for the call today Dr. Drax) with special discounts for group members of those organizations.

Kurt Slep
CEO, Sound Choice

 

[DJ Dr. Drax]

Kurt,

Your welcome. I enjoyed our conversation. I am also very happy to be working with the Top Karaoke supplier.

 

[JoeChartreuse]

However, I would like to expound a bit on the statement that several posters have made here: "SC States they're not out to stop piracy."

For us to think that Sound Choice could "stop piracy" would be far reaching since the mega-corporations such as Microsoft and all the major record labels have not been able to do it. To set "stopping piracy" as a primary goal would guarantee our failure. ............ clearer understanding of why “stopping piracy” is not our primary goal.

Let me state here a series of objectives, goals and marketing intentions that we do have. I think that most of you (even the "pirates") will find something to say "thanks, Sound Choice" about in our “bucket list”.



1) Our primary goal is to begin producing music and releasing new products again PROFITABLY. .


2) Unfortunately, piracy is so rampant, we estimate that only about 5% of the uses of our music are paid for. The rest is stolen.



3) We recognize that hard drive based systems are inherently easier to use and understand the appeal of the same. Unfortunately, so many of you forget that we are forced to “partner” with music publishers and thus we are not completely in control of what can be done. We are planning on releasing sets of songs in MP3+G format that are legally created by us.

4) During our investigations, Sound Choice is often played over 60% and as high as 90% of the time.

Kurt J. Slep
CEO, Sound Choice

1) Thanks for clarifying

2) As far as HD based tracks: since media shifting is, at best a gray area, In my opinion, both you AND PC based hosts are at best semi-legal.

3) You have yet to show ANY evidence of an actual "Investigation". Your misinformation has shown that you do nothing but fill a hat with any names that you can find- probably with the hopes of grabbing as much money as you can before having to actually appear-and lose- in court.

 

[JoeChartreuse]

yup, if I had the extra cash i would be investing in their entire catalog. As it stands, I'll just have to save up and wait for the mp3+g discs to arrive. I hope it is soon.

-James

Really? Despite the most recent post, Kurt has admitted that he has no license to media shift, yet he now says he wants to offer MP3s. Am I the only one that sees a problem with this?

 

[JoeChartreuse]

Kurt,

Even if your only reason and purpose was YOUR OWN BOTTOM LINE the affect would be the same for the KJs who operate legitimately, an increase in profitablity!

But regardless of why you are doing it, I want to thank you not only for doing it but for this post as well!

Steve, I love ya man- but yer starting to nauseate me. Brown is not a good color for caucasion noses....

 

[jokerswild]

Really? Despite the most recent post, Kurt has admitted that he has no license to media shift, yet he now says he wants to offer MP3s. Am I the only one that sees a problem with this?

Yes apparently so.... what Kurt said about distributing MP3+G discs is that they have been working out the licenses to do so... and are almost there for the first release of 3000 songs. By the very nature of this type of distribution it by passes the entire format shifting argument.

On the other point of SC distributing illegal tracks... they had at the time in good faith that the license was in place according to the, at the time current, copywrite laws were in fact legally distributed... it wasn't until the laws were changed and the definition of karaoke w/ video lyrics was changed to be similar to a movie that these laws were changed... and in the case of that imfamaous Eagles disc again they had permission from the publisher... it was the band that pulled the plug.... not SC fault and they (SC) discontinued distribution.

Sorry Joe I've been silent long enough on this subject.

 

[JoeChartreuse]

Yes apparently so.... what Kurt said about distributing MP3+G discs is that they have been working out the licenses to do so... and are almost there for the first release of 3000 songs. By the very nature of this type of distribution it by passes the entire format shifting argument.

On the other point of SC distributing illegal tracks... they had at the time in good faith that the license was in place according to the, at the time current, copywrite laws were in fact legally distributed... it wasn't until the laws were changed and the definition of karaoke w/ video lyrics was changed to be similar to a movie that these laws were changed... and in the case of that imfamaous Eagles disc again they had permission from the publisher... it was the band that pulled the plug.... not SC fault and they (SC) discontinued distribution.

Sorry Joe I've been silent long enough on this subject.

1) No problem, Rob. However "Having it on good faith" that they were going to get a license is no excuse for jumping the gun. They distributed without the actual licenses- that's their responsibility. They went for the quick gold without permission.

2 ) Again, MP3s of karaoke tracks are still not legal in the U.S. no combo Music/Mechanical/Sync licence exists. If SC produces karaoke tracks in MP3s- and admits it- they are admitting to piracy- how's that strike ya? Remember, even Kurt admits that they have no license to media shift.

 

[jokerswild]

1) No problem, Rob. However "Having it on good faith" that they were going to get a license is no excuse for jumping the gun. They distributed without the actual licenses- that's their responsibility. They went for the quick gold without permission.

2 ) Again, MP3s of karaoke tracks are still not legal in the U.S. no combo Music/Mechanical/Sync licence exists. If SC produces karaoke tracks in MP3s- and admits it- they are admitting to piracy- how's that strike ya?

I'll give ya #1 sortof... I didn't mean they in good faith produced and distributed what they assumed would be licensed I ment that they had license under what was current copyright laws based on tape cassette audio distribution and when the laws changed and defined the CDG and Video Disc as similar to a movie requiring sync rights that's when they lost the rights to distribute the music... the Eagles disc was a different story... they had permission as I understand from the publishers... but, it was the band that yanked the rights.... SC stoped distributing as soon as it was apparent they were not legally allowed to.

But that second point is completely off..... if SC has obtained rights to distribute some of their music as mp3+g then it's neither piracy nor format shifting.

It's not piracy because they have the rights to distribute in this manor....

It's not format shifting because transfering it to a PC when the format is already in mp3+g does not constitute a shift in format... just a shift in where it's stored and accessed from.

 

[Guest]

Steve, I love ya man- but yer starting to nauseate me. Brown is not a good color for caucasion noses....

Joe,

I am sorry if it is making you sick!:sqlaugh:

 

[MusicMeister]

2) No more stolen then all the 100s, if not 1000s of tracks that were distributed by you without proper licensing.

And here is a fundamental failing of this, and most copyright/licensing threads. People talk about this stuff but they don't understand it.

I'll clarify based on the discussions I've had with various people. While it might not be 100% accurate, the information has come from reputable sources, so I believe it to be fairly accurate and certainly 'good enough' for our discussions. When a song is selected for production by a karaoke company they contact the copyright owner (or someone acting on their behalf) for permission. Because these negotiations can take a long time they often strike an initial 'gentleman's agreement' for licenses. So let's take the case of the SC8125 disc. SC contacts the label and strikes a gentleman's agreement while the legal departments are hashing it out. SC goes to the studio and lays down the tracks - and then syncs the lyrics - and starts manufacturing the run of discs based on the 'gentleman's agreement'. Along the way, one of the people who is an owner/part-owner of the copyright on those songs (usually one of the songwriter's) steps in and says - 'Hell no. I'm not releasing my stuff as karaoke!'. Meanwhile SC has printed discs, and then sent them out - only to get this final 'No'. They can't 'recall' the discs that were already sold to private individuals so they pull existing stock, destroy them, take a loss, and work to make an arrangement for copyright on the discs that were sold.

In other words, the initial agreement fell through for some reason. They fully expected those licenses to get approved - only they didn't.

There are karaoke companies that don't even bother to ask for the agreements and instead pay 'after the fact' - which was part of the reason for the lawsuits a while back where one karaoke company sued the others for failing to get licenses (which, IIRC, was dropped, but I stopped following it for a while).

3) As far as HD based tracks: since media shifting is, at best a gray area, both you AND PC based hosts are at best semi-legal

If Sound Choice gets permission to distribute over MP3 then it's perfectly legal.

Space shifting is done by someone that has no rights to distribute the work. Meaning a consumer. Mechanical licensing allows for distribution in a variety of formats, with the various formats carrying different inherent costs. But mechanical licensing, sync licensing, master use, etc are purchased by someone distributing the works - ie, Sound Choice.

4) You have yet to show ANY evidence of an actual "Investigation". Your misinformation has shown that you do nothing but fill a hat with any names that you can find- probably with the hopes of grabbing as much money as you can before having to actually appear-and lose- in court.

Joe,

Have you tried talking with Kurt? Based on our brief discussions they're not pulling names from a hat. They have reason to file suit in those cities and during their investigations I'm sure they check out all the shows they can. I'm sure part of the problem is that not all investigators are going to understand A/V equipment well enough to never make a mistake.

Really? Despite the most recent post, Kurt has admitted that he has no license to media shift, yet he now says he wants to offer MP3s. Am I the only one that sees a problem with this?

They aren't media shifting. They are licensing distribution rights for MP3's.

1) No problem, Rob. However "Having it on good faith" that they were going to get a license is no excuse for jumping the gun. They distributed without the actual licenses- that's their responsibility. They went for the quick gold without permission.

As I posted above, this is actually SOP in the industry. Kurt alluded to this in an earlier post when he mentioned getting licenses taking so long and how he doesn't understand how other companies do it.

2 ) Again, MP3s of karaoke tracks are still not legal in the U.S. no combo Music/Mechanical/Sync licence exists. If SC produces karaoke tracks in MP3s- and admits it- they are admitting to piracy- how's that strike ya? Remember, even Kurt admits that they have no license to media shift.

And again... you post without understanding. They aren't media/space shifting. They are DISTRIBUTING. That requires a modification to their agreements to add that format as a distribution format - not a license to space shift.


Please people... do your home work before posting...

 

[DJ Dr. Drax]

Music Meister Ditto that times 10.

Joe, What your posting is simply flat out wrong. Just like the arguments you made that wireless mics in the 696-806 microphones would always be legal. Lest there be any doubt. http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/wirelessmicrophones/ you were and are wrong, either by not wanting to believe those that actually knew the situation or you just wanted to hope you wouldn't be wrong.

Either way you posted about it as fact, when in fact it wasn't. Same thing here. You were wrong. Your posting as facts, things that you either do not understand or are again hoping will be as you wish them.

I have studied copyright for decades. When I called the old Napster stealing, many said it was harshe, they were just sharing, they presented many arguments for it being legal, all based upon their hatred of the "suits" or I think mostly because they didn't like being called a thief for doing what they were doing, KNOWING it was wrong, stealing music that others paid for. Well the courts proved out that I was right, & they were wrong.

Space shifting is NOT A GREY AREA at all. It is completely illegal to break the mechanical license. The reason that there isn't a ton of prosecution on it falls on two plates. One, to make a lawsuit viable they have to show damages. If you own an original & make one space shifted copy where is their economic damages when they are not providing a way to legally obtain it on the new medium. The space shifting is classified as a diminuetive offfense, meaning that there is little value to prosecution. Two the DMCA allows for software to be backed up. The jury is still out as to if music is software.

So in this case your simply not correct.

Your tossing around statements as if they are true, calling SC a pirate or only being Semi Legal when of all the Karaoke companies, they produce the best quality tracks, they are legal. I have done my homework, I have read all the data presented regarding those issues. Have you? I regularly talk with mgmt at the labels as well as the Fox agency. They actually started contacting me back in the Napster days. it has led to a good relationship being formed.

I am not trying to be harsh, but IMO your making allegations that are unfounded. I would be careful in doing so. Statements made online are NOT protected speech, in that you can be sued for defamation for online statements & yes I can prove it.

Please become better informed on the actual laws governing these issues.

 

[MusicMeister]

Space shifting is NOT A GREY AREA at all. It is completely illegal to break the mechanical license.

I would only add one caveat - FOR COMMERCIAL PURPOSES.

PERSONAL USE space shifting is legal under the Rio Decision (AKA RIAA vs. Diamond Multimedia) and explicitly ILLEGAL for COMMERCIAL USE under that same decision.

 

[DJ Dr. Drax]

Meister,

agree 100%. I was only speaking regarding what we do, commercial use.

 

[MusicMeister]

It's ok Drax... but given the amount of misquoting and misunderstanding we have going on I thought I'd just throw that in.

And you don't have to call me Meister... I'm still just me... Ed Spencer. :D

The guy who is incapable of having a short conversation with you.

 

[DJ Dr. Drax]

Ed,

No worries, it was just respect to the ID you had here.

 

[jclaydon]

Really? Despite the most recent post, Kurt has admitted that he has no license to media shift, yet he now says he wants to offer MP3s. Am I the only one that sees a problem with this?

Joe:it's not media shifting FOR THEM because they own the master files. What they can't do is PASS ON that right to OTHER people because it isn't specifically granted in their liscense.

Kurt already explained this, and you even agreed with him and apologized.