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Karaoke Haters

Sound Choice said:
WRONG - I consistently and clearly state that we can only grant rights for that which we can grant them and that when we provide permission for something we state exactly what it is we are providing permission for and that we cannot warrant anything in regards to third parties in regards to THEIR PORTION of the Intellectual Property Rights. Stating that third parties "probably" won't go after them for the media shift when they have been paid their royalties is our opinion and that of other Karaoke producers and not a legal position. Here we are being totally transparent in stating what it is we are granting and outlining that the user has potential risks for proceeding with the format/media shift.

You are trying to wrongly create a "Does your dog bite?" comparison, whereas if you were being honest, you would have to admit that we have been clear in stating IN ADVANCE that "Whereas OUR dog won't bite, THAT'S NOT OUR dog!".

Smoke and mirrors....

What an incredible double-standard:

On one hand,
your entire position for your "new business model" is to see that you get rightfully paid for your past efforts and work in creating your products in the first place.... nothing really wrong with that.... Except now, everyone that uses your products -whether they are computer-based or disc-based are now being sued (read as; "dog bite") in order for you to "verify they are compliant" and why? So that you can "get paid" or "turn pirates into customers."

On the other hand,
you willfully "license" your new computer-based product out of the U.K. in order to sidestep expired licenses and purposely avoid rightfully paying the writers and publishers for their work.

So, we see that it's perfectly fine for YOU (and your dog) to dig holes and take a leak in the writers and publisher's rose garden, but heaven help anyone who might dare to do the same to you...

Gee, I wonder if a KJ were to pay someone in England to "hold the paper" on a "sister company" in order to pay for the "dub license" to convert your old tracks to a computer format and operate in the U.S. if your dog would be confused.... (I'll have to see about perhaps gettin a pro-dub license and setting up a server there....)

It's simply a matter of those "pesky technicalities"...
Just because you can do something legally doesn't necessarily make it "ethical" now does it?
 
Wouldn't it be nice if all the "Karaoke Haters" would just all go back to the DJ side and leave us alone ?

On a side note, and I don't mean to hijack the thread, but there was a great article in today's News And Observer (a Raleigh paper) about Sound Choice. It was a full page. Six columns long. It told about SC early beginings, and explained what they were trying to accomplish with fighting piracy. A really good, all inclusive article.

Way to go Sound Choice.
 
yorofl:
Skid Rowe said:
Wouldn't it be nice if all the "Karaoke Haters" would just all go back to the DJ side and leave us alone ?

We won't be taken to court if we choose to stay, will we? yorofl:
 
Skid Rowe said:
Wouldn't it be nice if all the "Karaoke Haters" would just all go back to the DJ side and leave us alone ?

On a side note, and I don't mean to hijack the thread, but there was a great article in today's News And Observer (a Raleigh paper) about Sound Choice. It was a full page. Six columns long. It told about SC early beginings, and explained what they were trying to accomplish with fighting piracy. A really good, all inclusive article.

Way to go Sound Choice.

wHAT SECTION..TRYING TO PULL IT UP ONLINE
 
BY JEN ARONOFF - The Charlotte Observer
CHARLOTTE -- In a generic office building near Carowinds, Kurt Slep won't stop believing.

He believed 25 years ago, when his younger brother, Derek, asked him to join and invest in a new business. It became Sound Choice, the nation's leading karaoke music producer.

He believed through the 1990s, when the company's fortunes soared, making the brothers multimillionaires.

And now that piracy has laid Sound Choice low, causing revenues to plummet, he believes still. Like Elvis in 1968, he thinks it's time for a comeback.

The company is suing hundreds of karaoke jockeys, or KJs, who have swiped its songs, aiming to make them paying customers.

"I have no more 401(k), hocked up every credit card," says Slep, 53, the company's CEO. "I am back to 1985 again, debt as high as I can get. ... But I believe in it. I can see a turnaround."

Sound Choice built its reputation on meticulous reconstructions of rock, pop and country hits, with and without vocals. In an industry where tinny, synthesizer-heavy backing tracks had been the norm, Sound Choice's true-to-the-originals quality became the standard and helped lift karaoke into the cultural mainstream.

The company licenses songs from music publishers and then re-records its own versions with employees and contract musicians. It sells the results on CD, formatted to play lyrics on screen, to professional KJs, bars and restaurants, retailers and the public.

By 1999, Sound Choice's best year ever, it had $12 million in sales and 85 full-time employees, plus local musicians who worked on contract.

But then easy digital copying and online file-sharing took hold, and the bottom line began to steadily erode. By the mid-2000s, when Sound Choice would release a new CD it would show up on the Internet, for sale on pirated hard drives. The company could not sell enough to cover its costs.

It laid off all but 10 employees. In 2007, it sold its 18,000-song back catalog, which cost $18 million to record, to a Canadian company for $4 million, and now licenses it back. It once cranked out 100 songs a month but has recorded only about 120 new karaoke tracks total in the last three years.

Slep figures Sound Choice products make up about 70 percent of karaoke songs played. Yet like other media upended by the spread of content readily accessible online, and often free, Sound Choice has seen its business model disintegrate.

When the company started, people were willing to pay for music and got water for free, Slep says; now, it's the reverse. In 2009, revenue was about $1 million. The company hopes it will be at least $1.5 million this year.

"We've gone through a lot here," Kurt Slep says, in his office on a hallway lined with mostly empty rooms. "This place used to be full of people."

Sound Choice's future now hinges on converting pirates to paying customers. In addition to filing lawsuits against professional KJs, Sound Choice is selling them an exclusive package of 6,000 of its best songs, as MP3s for the relatively low price of $4,500. If that works - Slep says it's starting to - then the company plans to ramp up production of new music.

"People are asking for it," he says. "But my answer is, 'I'll record it when you buy it.'"

1985: Before 'karaoke'

Kurt and Derek Slep had never heard the word "karaoke" when they started Sound Choice in 1985. Derek, an audio engineer who's now 47, wanted to open a franchise of a small recording booth owned by a man he'd interned for as a college student in Nashville. The booth let visitors record themselves singing along to vocal-free versions of popular songs, the backing tracks pre-taped by Nashville musicians.

Kurt, then a chemical engineer with Celanese in Charlotte, sensed that textiles were declining and was looking for an investment opportunity. More than 20 banks had turned Derek down, but Kurt devised a business plan and invested $25,000. They opened their booth at Carowinds in 1985, and by the next year had expanded to two other theme parks.

Demand for new songs was intense and the owner of the original booth, in Nashville, couldn't keep up. At the same time, they noticed people were interested in buying the background music separately. So Derek turned part of his apartment into a studio, where the Sleps made their own sing-a-long sing-along tapes, as they were initially called.

When times were flush, the company jumped on popular songs immediately and sometimes re-recorded top-selling artists' entire albums. Now, Kurt Slep says, it has to wait for what it thinks will be hits people will want to sing for years.

Sound Choice is known for its faithful recreations of rock and heavy metal tunes, but it also offers products for everything from nursing homes to day care centers. A series for "mature singers," called "Reminiscing," contains songs from the 1900s through 1940s.

In each case, the company's musicians pick out all the different instrumentation by ear, transcribe the lyrics and write production notes. Nipe, 37, and recording engineer Paul Jensen, 48, , decode how songs were originally recorded, and with what equipment, so they can reproduce them exactly.

Sound Choice's struggles come as karaoke is arguably more popular than ever and demand for new songs is strong, industry observers say. But few manufacturers are producing much music, says Peter Parker, publisher of California-based Karaoke Scene magazine. Because of illegal distribution, there isn't enough money in it. Fly-by-night, unlicensed knockoffs with cheap instrumentation are cropping up, too.

'The Motown of karaoke'

Brian Raftery, author of "Don't Stop Believin': How Karaoke Conquered the World and Changed My Life," says Sound Choice brought legitimacy to a medium others didn't take seriously.

"They really were kind of like the Motown of karaoke bands," he says, "like a hit factory that didn't write their own hits."

"There really are a lot of terribly made karaoke songs out there, and it really takes away from the fun of getting up and singing," he said. "[But] a Sound Choice song ... would sound exactly like the song you performed a bunch of times in your head ... and that was incredibly empowering."

Raftery says Sound Choice put a lot of faith in consumers' ambition to do karaoke well. But he fears its painstaking approach to song selection may be holding it back from capitalizing on new technology, like online crowd-sourcing and fundraising, to better discern which songs people want and quickly.

Can company recover?

"I worry, as a lot of their fans do, that they won't be able to get back to their past glory," he says. "I'm rooting for them, and I think a lot of other people root for them, too."

Though Sound Choice has recorded a handful of tracks in recent months, including Carrie Underwood's "Undo It" and a Taylor Swift song, its last full album came out in March, filled with top hits of 2009. Slep says he knows the company can't survive forever on its back catalog. For now, its business model has shifted to recovering assets.

Investigators around the country are searching for KJs playing pirated music. Lawyers working on contingency will sue, asking them to prove they've paid for it. The goal is to encourage defendants to settle and become paying customers. Sound Choice asks that they pay what they would have if they'd bought the music legally, not punitively.

About half the 120 suits filed earlier this year have been settled. One man in Florida was running 40 shows a week with eight systems, and settled for $60,000. More than 300 suits are set to be filed this month.

The company has also started a sort of amnesty program for KJs, offering 6,000 of its most popular songs in MP3 format for $4,500. People Kurt Slep suspects are pirates will call to order discs, he says, claiming that they're just getting into the business or that their car was broken into. Slep says Sound Choice doesn't care about their reasons as long as they pay.

Both sales and lawsuits are picking up, Slep says. . But he estimates there are about 25,000 pirates operating, so there's still a way to go.

To generate extra income, Sound Choice is renting office space and studio time to outsiders. The company hopes to resume karaoke production soon. Because of its reputation, Slep says, the company is still in a better position than competitors to capitalize on karaoke's popularity.

Sound Choice is reassembling its musical team and aims to begin recording new releases again in October. By then the new lawsuits should be paying dividends and improving cash flow.
 
Found it and here it is
CHARLOTTE -- In a generic office building near Carowinds, Kurt Slep won't stop believing.

He believed 25 years ago, when his younger brother, Derek, asked him to join and invest in a new business. It became Sound Choice, the nation's leading karaoke music producer.

He believed through the 1990s, when the company's fortunes soared, making the brothers multimillionaires.

And now that piracy has laid Sound Choice low, causing revenues to plummet, he believes still. Like Elvis in 1968, he thinks it's time for a comeback.

The company is suing hundreds of karaoke jockeys, or KJs, who have swiped its songs, aiming to make them paying customers.

"I have no more 401(k), hocked up every credit card," says Slep, 53, the company's CEO. "I am back to 1985 again, debt as high as I can get. ... But I believe in it. I can see a turnaround."

Sound Choice built its reputation on meticulous reconstructions of rock, pop and country hits, with and without vocals. In an industry where tinny, synthesizer-heavy backing tracks had been the norm, Sound Choice's true-to-the-originals quality became the standard and helped lift karaoke into the cultural mainstream.

The company licenses songs from music publishers and then re-records its own versions with employees and contract musicians. It sells the results on CD, formatted to play lyrics on screen, to professional KJs, bars and restaurants, retailers and the public.

By 1999, Sound Choice's best year ever, it had $12 million in sales and 85 full-time employees, plus local musicians who worked on contract.

But then easy digital copying and online file-sharing took hold, and the bottom line began to steadily erode. By the mid-2000s, when Sound Choice would release a new CD it would show up on the Internet, for sale on pirated hard drives. The company could not sell enough to cover its costs.

It laid off all but 10 employees. In 2007, it sold its 18,000-song back catalog, which cost $18 million to record, to a Canadian company for $4 million, and now licenses it back. It once cranked out 100 songs a month but has recorded only about 120 new karaoke tracks total in the last three years.

Slep figures Sound Choice products make up about 70 percent of karaoke songs played. Yet like other media upended by the spread of content readily accessible online, and often free, Sound Choice has seen its business model disintegrate.

When the company started, people were willing to pay for music and got water for free, Slep says; now, it's the reverse. In 2009, revenue was about $1 million. The company hopes it will be at least $1.5 million this year.

"We've gone through a lot here," Kurt Slep says, in his office on a hallway lined with mostly empty rooms. "This place used to be full of people."

Sound Choice's future now hinges on converting pirates to paying customers. In addition to filing lawsuits against professional KJs, Sound Choice is selling them an exclusive package of 6,000 of its best songs, as MP3s for the relatively low price of $4,500. If that works - Slep says it's starting to - then the company plans to ramp up production of new music.

"People are asking for it," he says. "But my answer is, 'I'll record it when you buy it.'"

1985: Before 'karaoke'

Kurt and Derek Slep had never heard the word "karaoke" when they started Sound Choice in 1985. Derek, an audio engineer who's now 47, wanted to open a franchise of a small recording booth owned by a man he'd interned for as a college student in Nashville. The booth let visitors record themselves singing along to vocal-free versions of popular songs, the backing tracks pre-taped by Nashville musicians.

Kurt, then a chemical engineer with Celanese in Charlotte, sensed that textiles were declining and was looking for an investment opportunity. More than 20 banks had turned Derek down, but Kurt devised a business plan and invested $25,000. They opened their booth at Carowinds in 1985, and by the next year had expanded to two other theme parks.

Demand for new songs was intense and the owner of the original booth, in Nashville, couldn't keep up. At the same time, they noticed people were interested in buying the background music separately. So Derek turned part of his apartment into a studio, where the Sleps made their own sing-a-long sing-along tapes, as they were initially called.

When times were flush, the company jumped on popular songs immediately and sometimes re-recorded top-selling artists' entire albums. Now, Kurt Slep says, it has to wait for what it thinks will be hits people will want to sing for years.

Sound Choice is known for its faithful recreations of rock and heavy metal tunes, but it also offers products for everything from nursing homes to day care centers. A series for "mature singers," called "Reminiscing," contains songs from the 1900s through 1940s.

In each case, the company's musicians pick out all the different instrumentation by ear, transcribe the lyrics and write production notes. Nipe, 37, and recording engineer Paul Jensen, 48, , decode how songs were originally recorded, and with what equipment, so they can reproduce them exactly.

Sound Choice's struggles come as karaoke is arguably more popular than ever and demand for new songs is strong, industry observers say. But few manufacturers are producing much music, says Peter Parker, publisher of California-based Karaoke Scene magazine. Because of illegal distribution, there isn't enough money in it. Fly-by-night, unlicensed knockoffs with cheap instrumentation are cropping up, too.

'The Motown of karaoke'

Brian Raftery, author of "Don't Stop Believin': How Karaoke Conquered the World and Changed My Life," says Sound Choice brought legitimacy to a medium others didn't take seriously.

"They really were kind of like the Motown of karaoke bands," he says, "like a hit factory that didn't write their own hits."

"There really are a lot of terribly made karaoke songs out there, and it really takes away from the fun of getting up and singing," he said. "[But] a Sound Choice song ... would sound exactly like the song you performed a bunch of times in your head ... and that was incredibly empowering."

Raftery says Sound Choice put a lot of faith in consumers' ambition to do karaoke well. But he fears its painstaking approach to song selection may be holding it back from capitalizing on new technology, like online crowd-sourcing and fundraising, to better discern which songs people want and quickly.

Can company recover?

"I worry, as a lot of their fans do, that they won't be able to get back to their past glory," he says. "I'm rooting for them, and I think a lot of other people root for them, too."

Though Sound Choice has recorded a handful of tracks in recent months, including Carrie Underwood's "Undo It" and a Taylor Swift song, its last full album came out in March, filled with top hits of 2009. Slep says he knows the company can't survive forever on its back catalog. For now, its business model has shifted to recovering assets.

Investigators around the country are searching for KJs playing pirated music. Lawyers working on contingency will sue, asking them to prove they've paid for it. The goal is to encourage defendants to settle and become paying customers. Sound Choice asks that they pay what they would have if they'd bought the music legally, not punitively.

About half the 120 suits filed earlier this year have been settled. One man in Florida was running 40 shows a week with eight systems, and settled for $60,000. More than 300 suits are set to be filed this month.

The company has also started a sort of amnesty program for KJs, offering 6,000 of its most popular songs in MP3 format for $4,500. People Kurt Slep suspects are pirates will call to order discs, he says, claiming that they're just getting into the business or that their car was broken into. Slep says Sound Choice doesn't care about their reasons as long as they pay.

Both sales and lawsuits are picking up, Slep says. . But he estimates there are about 25,000 pirates operating, so there's still a way to go.

To generate extra income, Sound Choice is renting office space and studio time to outsiders. The company hopes to resume karaoke production soon. Because of its reputation, Slep says, the company is still in a better position than competitors to capitalize on karaoke's popularity.

Sound Choice is reassembling its musical team and aims to begin recording new releases again in October. By then the new lawsuits should be paying dividends and improving cash flow
 
Skid,

It isn't a hijack because it fits right in!

Athena you were 30 seconds too late! LOL
 
Thanks Thunder. Looks like Sound Choice may have put this in several news papers hopeing to reach (or teach) a larger mass of people about the problems with piracy.
 
Jon Tuck said:
and again Mr Schlepp states he isnt giving legal permission only SC permission. thanks Kurt for again clarifying.

More name calling by Forum Staff. Just want to clarify that.
 
Wall Of Sound said:
More name calling by Forum Staff. Just want to clarify that.

A simple misspelling.

Jon,

The proper spelling is "Slep"

WallOfSound,

Not all posts have some insidious dagger with an agenda, some are simple mistakes.

(Just wanted to clarify that myself...) :triwink:
 
Jon Knows what the correct spelling is!

He has been called on it before and continues to use an alternative spelling while calling everyone else down for it!!
 
c. staley said:

On the other hand,
you willfully "license" your new computer-based product out of the U.K. in order to sidestep expired licenses and purposely avoid rightfully paying the writers and publishers for their work.

Gotta jump in here for a sec. Licensing is licensing and it doesn't really matter if you license a song through ASCAP/BMI/SESAC etc. in the US, or PRS in the UK. The artist still get their licensing fees. I'm inclined to believe an artist is MORE likely to get their fees from stuff licensed in the UK, since there's only one organization to deal with, and the laws are simpler.

Kurt didn't sidestep anything. He simply went where he could get done what he wanted to do, and do it legally.
 
Wall Of Sound said:
More name calling by Forum Staff. Just want to clarify that.

Thunder said:
Jon Knows what the correct spelling is!

He has been called on it before and continues to use an alternative spelling while calling everyone else down for it!!


BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA :D


Listening to you two whine about people being called names, is sorta similar to Paris Hilton wondering why she gets no respect... yorofl:
 
Moonrider said:
Gotta jump in here for a sec. Licensing is licensing and it doesn't really matter if you license a song through ASCAP/BMI/SESAC etc. in the US, or PRS in the UK. The artist still get their licensing fees. I'm inclined to believe an artist is MORE likely to get their fees from stuff licensed in the UK, since there's only one organization to deal with, and the laws are simpler.

Kurt didn't sidestep anything. He simply went where he could get done what he wanted to do, and do it legally.

Agree 100%. And in some cases an artist is making MORE than they would in the Us because the label won't ALLOW a particular song to be used for karaoke. So they are getting income from a source that does not exist here!

In my opinion, a legal product is a legal product, regardless of where it comes from, otherwise people in the US & Canada would not be allowed to purchase Zoom, Sunfly and many other overseas manufacuters.

It doesn't matter what product you have bought, as soon as you bring it into a bar or public place, it all requires a performance license so in my opinion as long as those fees are being paid, no one should care where it came from.

-James
 
Moonrider said:
Gotta jump in here for a sec. Licensing is licensing and it doesn't really matter if you license a song through ASCAP/BMI/SESAC etc. in the US, or PRS in the UK. The artist still get their licensing fees. I'm inclined to believe an artist is MORE likely to get their fees from stuff licensed in the UK, since there's only one organization to deal with, and the laws are simpler.

Kurt didn't sidestep anything. He simply went where he could get done what he wanted to do, and do it legally.

Your comparing apples to oranges here.... This has NOTHING to do with a "performance license" through ASCAP, BMI, or SEASAC.

It has to do with proper licensing for creating a karaoke track such as "fixing" (mechanical), Synchronization (sweeps) and lyric reprint (copyright) licenses which are ALL negotiated licenses, it has nothing to do with some simple fee for "performance rights."

You've been tricked by the smoke and mirrors....

When it comes to manufacturers, get the "ascap,bmi,seasac" stuff out of the equation, because the licenses they need have NOTHING to do with "performance."

Soundchoice doesn't own a venue where the music is "performed" do they? Nope.

Soundchoice doesn't come to your club to "perform the music" do they? Nope. They sell the stuff that "gets performed" (played) by a KJ.

So the club is the only one that must pay the "performance license", period. Not manufacturers - EVER!

You might as well say that you should be able to go fishing (unlicensed) anywhere because you have a license sticker on the side of your boat to get there and because you have this "license," it should cover any activity related to boating.

Talk about beating a dead horse.... geez!

So, if he has licensed with a "performing rights society" then he has sidestepped everything else hasn't he?
 
c. staley said:
Your comparing apples to oranges here.... This has NOTHING to do with a "performance license" through ASCAP, BMI, or SEASAC.

It has to do with proper licensing for creating a karaoke track such as "fixing" (mechanical), Synchronization (sweeps) and lyric reprint (copyright) licenses which are ALL negotiated licenses, it has nothing to do with some simple fee for "performance rights."

You've been tricked by a mirror....


ALL of which are handled by ONE organization AND for which SOUNDCHOICE HAS PAID FOR!

When you pay the PRS/MCPS a fee, in INCLUDES ALL of the above mentioned mechanical rights.

so wrong again

-James
 
This talk of licensing in the UK has made me think of something to ask Kurt directly.

Kurt: you once called for possibile solutions to the dilemas that face producers such as soundchoice.

I'm afraid I don't have any better answer for the piracy end, but in terms of being able to produce affordable legal karaoke, I was wondering if it would be possible to record the MUSIC in the US and then turn them into proper "Karaoke" tracks as a UK product that is imported much like Zoom etc is.

That way you wouldn't have to go to the expense of setting up an actual studio in the UK, and you would have the advantage of paying US musicians engineers, etc for their talents.


I realize that you may already be doing this to an extent, but I guess I was wondering is would there still be the same issues in terms of format or media shifting and what Sound Choice would be able to license to end users?

-James
 
jclaydon said:
ALL of which are handled by ONE organization AND for which SOUNDCHOICE HAS PAID FOR!

When you pay the PRS/MCPS a fee, in INCLUDES ALL of the above mentioned mechanical rights.

so wrong again

-James

Let's see... I think the only "tie-breaker" here is the person that actually HAS the product:

BAZZA:

At the end of each track on the Gem series, does a "(c)copyright" and the words; "used by permission" pop up?

Inquiring minds need to know.....
 
c. staley said:
When it comes to manufacturers, get the "ascap,bmi,seasac" stuff out of the equation, because the licenses they need have NOTHING to do with "performance."

Sync licensing and publishing (lyric reprint) are also handled by ASCAP, BMI, or SESAC in the US. At least that's what they've sent me a few meager checks for, along with performance royalties. In the US you're dealing with an alphabet soup of organizations to license a work or get your fees from people who have licensed your work.

It's not hard to understand your confusion on this, because it IS confusing. Not to mention it's a royal pain in the butt too.

In the UK, the PRS handles EVERYTHING (oh, how sweet it must be). Mechanicals, publishing, sync, performance - ALL of it.

Kurt didn't circumvent anything by licensing in the UK. He opted to produce his product in a country that handles the licensing in a far more sane manner. I don't blame him a bit!
 
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