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LoudKaraoke.com sued by publisher

Chartbusterette said:
After all, one hates most the things one sees in others that are reflections of things they hate about themselves.
You would do well to remember this and apply it to yourself as well.
Chartbusterette said:
There isn't a single successful company in the world of any longevity that hasn't defended itself in a lawsuit for some sort of infraction. This is not said to justify anyone's actions, let alone that of a pirate, but simply to indicate that if your litmus test on using a product is predicated on the respective manufacturer's possession of a spotless record of litigation, then you must forswear using the products of Microsoft, IBM, AMD, Dell, Apple, and of a myriad other companies as well.
Again, it's the fact that you tried to portray yourself as squeaky clean when you weren't. No one hates your product, but when you are quick to point your finger and insinuate that we could be sued for something YOU neglected to do and then lay the blame at our feet, it's a wonder anyone here would listen to anything you have to say afterward.

Chartbusterette said:
But to continue to purchase and use such products while executing a jihad of animosity smacks of hypocrisy.
You appear to to be quite the expert on hypocrisy right about now, no?
 
Paradigm Karaoke said:
i understand glass houses, throwing stones.....what i don't understand is why it appears that if a manu has willingly or otherwise put out unlicensed material, and paid the price for it that it diminishes the guilt of the pirate KJ. as it appears from how this thread has gone, since SC and CB have put out unlicensed tracks before, then they have no right to come after me if i pirate their stuff. to me it sounds like a guy steals my car, goes to jail, gets out, and when his car gets stolen, he has no right to prosecute the thief. i don't get that sentiment at all.

Frankly, your assessment lacks maturity. To use your analogy: The thief who stole your car is now threatening to sue all car owners to recover his lost wages while in prison.

SC and CB are not looking for piracy - they are looking for pockets with cash from which they can coerce settlements. The whole purpose of which is to recover/cover the damages/liabilities they have incurred as a result of their own malfeasance.

This is the thanks you get for buying their product.

What SC and CB seem to forget is that pirates don't buy anything; they never have and probably never will. Actual sales are made among the KJs and DJs who care enough to notice what the manufacturers are doing - and most of us are mad as hell.
 
Mantis1 said:
How can a KJ, in good faith, purchase a product when their vitriol for the mfr is such?

lemme guess..... they buy,.... er..... obtain.......products from overseas?

What's wrong with "overseas?"

THE GEM SERIES COMES FROM OVERSEAS RIGHT?
 
Diafel said:
You would do well to remember this and apply it to yourself as well.

I shall certainly do so... the next time I decide to start a smear campaign against someone for defending their rights.

Diafel said:
Again, it's the fact that you tried to portray yourself as squeaky clean when you weren't.

You keep harping on this, but nowhere have we ever claimed to be without our own warts. We never placed ourselves on any kind of pedestal, said we were without sin, or failed to acknowledge any mistakes we may have made. Lawsuits are a matter of public record. One may assume anyone with a computer or sufficient knowledge of the industry would be aware of them.

If your position is that we should loudly proclaim any past mistakes

Diafel said:
No one hates your product, but when you are quick to point your finger and insinuate that we could be sued for something YOU neglected to do and then lay the blame at our feet, it's a wonder anyone here would listen to anything you have to say afterward.

We have clearly pointed out that a KJ needs to be very careful of the source of their tracks due to the commercial nature of their enterprises. That's not an insinuation, that's a statement. The law will absolutely hold you accountable for illicit business practices. If this is a source of some doubt to you, then why hold any previous legal action against us in such high esteem?

You are not required to believe anything we say. You will form your own opinion.

Diafel said:
You appear to to be quite the expert on hypocrisy right about now, no?

How so?
 
Chartbusterette said:
From the beginning our company was built on honesty, integrity, character and very high standards.
Really?
Did something happen after the beginning until now?
Seems so.
Hmmmm
Just sayin' !
 
Chartbusterette said:
1) It doesn't matter when you purchased the disc. As I said, the licenses were granted ab initio.



2) That is not the case at all. Not only do we have the proper licensing for the underlying musical work(s), we also own the rights to our own creative work(s).


1) My initial qustion was whether it was licensed at the time of purchase. The answer is still "no", and I had to get it elsewhere. At this point, after reading complaint and judgement- and the details in regard to CB following an initial judgement- I'm afraid I can no longer take your word that it's licensed now.

I mean no offense, but am running a business, and need proof. I f you would be kind enough to post a link to the document, as I initially asked?


2) as for this, you may or may not be in the same boat as SC, depending on your actual licensing from the publishers. If you don't have it, then any copyright on your cover versions won't do any good in court. The same for your logo. By having it, I mean on EVERY TRACK that you EVER produced and manufactured. If a defendant comes across a few ( or many) STILL unlicensed tracks that are still in circulation, they will be the proof needed that there are currently tracks out there with logos illegally attached, and unlicensed covers. Add to that past history, and any case surely hits the tubes.

On the the other hand, if you DO have licensing for every single track that you have EVER produced than that may not be the case.
 
Mantis1 said:
and for the record, I am FOR the mfr's when it comes to piracy. If their houses are not in order, then that is their problem now isn't it?

Hmm. Doesn't that mean if the house of KJs is not in order, it's OUR problem? Or is there some sort of double standard?
 
JoeChartreuse said:
1) My initial qustion was whether it was licenced at the time of purchase. The answer is still "no", and I had to get it elsewhere.

Yes, our songs will have been licensed at the time of your purchase. That's what ab initio means. Any dispute between the publishers and us have been made whole, and the tracks were licensed "from the beginning."

JoeChartreuse said:
I mean no offense, but am running a business, and need proof. I f you would be kind enough to post a link to the document, as I initially asked?

None taken, but our contracts with publishers are not public documents.

JoeChartreuse said:
If a defendant comes across a few ( or many) STILL unlicensed tracks that are still in circulation, they will be the proof needed that there are currently tracks out there with logos illegally attached, and unlicensed covers. Add to that past history, and any case surely hits the tubes.

Not so. If it were, don't you think that one of the hundreds of defendants in the Sound Choice complaints would have made this case?
 
Mantis1 said:
You clean YOUR house Chip.
Weren't you exposed on KS or Jolt yrs ago??? Again, not a court judgement but... .

Since personalizations and flames cause more problems than they are worth, I'd rather not see them. To that end, I ask the following:

What PROOF of ANYTHING can be shown on a forum? Nothing but posts there. What sort of tangible PROOF "exposed" Chip?

I've seen this stuff before when people got all bent out of shape at Cesar's very good questions. Instead of taking his posts at their merit ( good or bad ) they DEMANDED "PROOF" of his identity, business, etc..

What they really wanted was to see a website ( which anyone can build)- absolutely ridiculous! He's eventually gave in a bit ( after yanking chains a bit more) and posted pics of his equipment, office, etc.... For that he was accused of taking pics of someone else's rig- which was his point exactly- There is no way to PROVE anything on a forum.

Your "exposure" was merely something that someone posted- period.

Please leave insults and negative personalizations out of it, an debate on merit alone- I'd appreciate it... We've had ( in only my opinion at least) more than enough of it here, Lee. It's why we got separated from ODJT in the first place.
 
Chartbusterette said:

Seems the court records suggest otherwise, and for you to insist that you were above board from the start only furthers the damage to your credibility.
Really.
 
Mantis1 said:
If you have been legit it makes me wonder "why the crusade?" even more

Why, why,why??? ?

I'm a single op and always have been- always will be, for that matter. I'm also mfr. disc based, and not because of anything any mfr. has done. I "crusade" as well. Anyone who comes to one of my shows and sees my open binders full of mfr. discs laying on the work table will back that up.

This has been answered ad nauseum, at least in regard to SC and ther damage that THEY have been doing to innocent KJs, and in causing venue reticence.

THAT is what started and kept me on MY "crusade".

As far as CB is concerned- I LIKED the plan that I heard about, and was hoping for implementation. Unfortunately, their history seems to have de-fanged them legally, as it has SC.

My very first posts in regard to fighting piracy ( what seems a million years ago) were in hopes of an empowered law enforcement agency stepping up. Unfortunately, that won't happen, at least in regard to individual KJs. So now, while I agree that another course must be taken, it ( so far ) doesn't seem that the mfrs. are up to the task either- on ALL levels.
 
Proformance said:
These forums and I will part ways permanently. I am content that karaoke manufacturers deserve a place in the entertainment world right alongside the likes of strip club owners and traveling carnivals. Pay them your attention at your own risk.

Pro, while I don't always agree with your presentation, I have found you to be of strong business acumen and a good source in regard to facts ( our OPINIONS in certain areas may not be in harmony, but the facts are the facts.), and hope that you reconsider.
 
Big Joe said:
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/unclean+hands

Seems that both SC and CB, with thier previous licensing issues would have a hard time in court if the defendant decided to use this as a part of thier defense.

That's what I've been saying all along. My information comes from 2 TM attorneys still on retainer from my design engineering days. It won't be "hard", it will be darn near impossible, if all parties are fully knowledgeable. I'm CERTAIN that SC knows this at this point and will never go to court, but WILL continue to coerce less knowledgeable KJs into "settlements"- which in my mind are really coerced disc sales..
 
Chartbusterette said:
1) Yes, our songs will have been licensed at the time of your purchase. That's what ab initio means. Any dispute between the publishers and us have been made whole, and the tracks were licensed "from the beginning."



2) None taken, but our contracts with publishers are not public documents.



3) Not so. If it were, don't you think that one of the hundreds of defendants in the Sound Choice complaints would have made this case?

1) I know what it meant. The key words in my question were " At the time of purchase", I wasn't asking about retro-actively. The answer is still "no".

2) Actually, a licensing agreement WOULD be publicly available, especially on the net.- I ( being the "Luddite" that I am) simply don't know where to look. I'm not going to drag this out, and will simply take your answer as a "pass".


3) Of course not, since none will ever see a court room, why would ever have come up? However, I'm fairly sure that those complaints that were "dropped" were "dropped" because the KJ was knowledgeable enough to know that they didn't have a case, and were ready to fight ( and probably successfully counter-sue.)
 
Chartbusterette said:
None taken, but our contracts with publishers are not public documents.

Hmmm... Let's see if I understand the whole picture here:

1. Chartbuster says that it is the responsibility of the KJ to know -or to find out- if the material they purchase to use in their "commercial business" is licensed or not.

2. Publishers are under no obligation to discuss licensing with KJ's for any reason whatsoever.

3. Chartbuster will not provide any proof of licensing because their "licenses are not public documents."

Kind of a vicious circle here isn't it?


It would be interesting to see how a product like the Gem Series fits into this mix.... since they are not licensed in the U.S., are we expected to go on a world-wide search for proof of licensing? Surprising (or not) that we've not heard a peep from Sound Choice on the matter whatsoever nor many comments from the cheerleading side of these debates. Mysteriously silent.
 
I plan to continue buying CB as most others putting out new country don't make as good a product and we are in an area that still has actual, horse-riding, working cowboys. I have yet to find a company that is "pure" in regard to licensing/lawsuits. My only hope is that the current trend will be toward cleaning house on all levels and that includes the manufacturers.

What all this means to how we operate is I can't know what is licensed or not licensed. If someone wants to hold me responsible I guess I would have to point to all of this. There isn't a way to know right now. That doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer to support those who do it correctly and pay the original creator what they are due. If some sort of system comes into play, I will direct my business towards the "good guys."

Although my boyfriend worked for another karaoke company a decade ago and we have been "singers" for as long, the business is new and I don't have the long history of being harrassed by karaoke companies in the past or knowing who did what to who. I do appreciate history as far as understanding how we come to be where we are but I can only operate by dealing with what is happening today. So far, the big 3 all have had lawsuits. If they stole music, they should pay up. If people stole music from them, those people should pay up.

There is a lot of pressure for these companies as far as competing with those who don't have to play by the same rules. I know when SC was still putting out new songs people would complain they were slow and I always wondered if it was because they had cleaned up their act and were trying to get the licensing down first. We seem to want it both ways.

The "meaning" behind posting this lawsuit is still a bit of a mystery to me. Perhaps the publishers will be taking on pirates as they have better standing to do so. Don't have to rely on trademark as they have the original copyright. Don't know what that would do as far as 1:1 as the pass on that is from the karaoke companies only. It will be interesting to see what happens to karaoke and who survives.
 
possumdog said:
The "meaning" behind posting this lawsuit is still a bit of a mystery to me. Perhaps the publishers will be taking on pirates as they have better standing to do so. Don't have to rely on trademark as they have the original copyright. Don't know what that would do as far as 1:1 as the pass on that is from the karaoke companies only. It will be interesting to see what happens to karaoke and who survives.

It was all in the 8-ball game that Chartbusterette's been playing:

#1. Publisher sues manufacturer (1st infringer)
#2. Publisher reserves certain songs as not licensable. (the injunction - remember?)
#3. Publisher sues distributor for selling/sampling songs that are either included on the injunction (never licensed to anyone) or not licensed to the brands they are selling. i.e. Nutech and others. (2nd infringer)

Then came the 8-ball cryptic warning originally posted by Chartbusterette (or her ghost writer :winkpill: ):

Finally, we are not aware of any effort to interdict discs that may have been sold in the past, contained unlicensed songs, and now reside in the hands of end-users. However, we would not discount the possibility that such discs being used in a commercial enterprise might not run afoul of litigators in the future.

4. This means that you might own discs that contain songs from the injunction(ed) list on Chartbuster, Sound Choice or on Nutech or other brands that were not licensed and when you play them -just like the distributor that doesn't make them, but just sells them - you are the "3rd infringer" and subject to a lawsuit from Warner/Chappell directly.

Of course, here's the problem with #4:

1) How are you to know what is and what is not "legal" for you to play?
2) The publisher certainly isn't going to talk to you about every licensed song and who licensed them or when.
3) You have no way of determining whether songs are licensed or not and no contact information for Nutech or out of business suppliers like Radio Starz, Karaoke Classics, Music Maestro, etc. to even begin to ask for confirmation.
4) Even Chartbuster won't release their license information to you to "protect your commercial enterprise." You're just supposed to "trust their word" on it and we know how reliable and honest that has been so far.

So, at a filing fee of $350.00 each, how many KJ's do you think Warner/Chappell is going to first investigate, then track down and serve and sue for copyright infringement and what sort of return could they expect from each one? And if a case like this were ever to see a courtroom, it would be pretty difficult for Warner/Chappell to prove that the KJ had any means whatsoever to know or determine that the music they purchased in good faith was licensed or not. Even companies like HFA (Harry Fox Agency) won't discuss licensing with a KJ.

I'll wager Warner/Chappell won't chase around the country suing KJ's (like Sound Choice) because there is no money for them there and they'd be throwing legal fees down a bottomless pit. It's worth it to go after distributors because they're simply easier to find and latch on to in the first place. I'm just surprised they didn't latch on to the bigger fish like ProSing etc...

But here's something even more interesting to think about if you read #4 again:
Where does that leave the Gem Series? If the Gem Series contains songs from the injunction(ed) list, Sound Choice -the exclusive distributor- would be the 1st infringer and you may be the "2nd infringer." But after thinking about it, you would most likely be the 1st infringer... since their agreement states that the licensee (you) need to get whatever licensing and permits are required and hold SC harmless.
 
djkjwhatj said:

Appreciate the posts so thanks for looking this stuff up... I prefer pacer (use it quite often) and you get real information that is not a synopsis.

These (listed above) are just a few of the many suits and there are some that don't appear related but they are...

If you know where to look and what to look for, you'll find all kinds of copyright-related stuff which explains a lot:

Originally posted by Chartbusterette:

In the last 5 years we have lost millions of dollars to the illegal use of Karaoke Tracks.

I would remove the word "use" and replace it with "creation."


miltile.jpg



Click HERE to read the 2 million dollar judgment and permanent injunction against CB.
 
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