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Sound Choice Litigation - Worst Fears A Reality

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Just for the record, even if you delete songs you don't have off a hard drive, the FBI has ways of recovering them.

There are even ways to trace how many times a particular mp3 has been copied, and the path it took to wind up with you.

Bottom line. Spend the time and rip from your discs like Joe always says.

I also buy music from SBI. i personally don't care about the grey areas. I paid for my downloads, sbi is getting their money and so are the artists.. That's good enough for me.
 
Okay--so I asked him on the other forum why he has waited since July to respond. I was just curious as to if if he was trying to prove a point that he didn't recognize their authority and he wanted to put a stop to the harrassment or what. If it were me I would have been on the phone with them on day 1 to clear myself first and try to effect change later. I know it would seem unjust to some but there are a lot of things that happen to us in life that are unjust and dealing with them anyway just seems like the adult thing to do.
 
he who copies is a pirate?

Just for the record, even if you delete songs you don't have off a hard drive, the FBI has ways of recovering them.

Yes, and no. A secure erase would make it very difficulty to get them back.

There are even ways to trace how many times a particular mp3 has been copied, and the path it took to wind up with you.

False: MP3 has a bunch of tags and meta-information, but there is not a record in the mp3 of the particular computer it has occupied. And digital copying leaves no trace of how many copies have been made. *SOME* particular programs *may* record such information, but there is no magic to mp3s that do that on all computers and all programs.

Bottom line. Spend the time and rip from your discs like Joe always says.

Rip your own is fine if your have the time and the skills and the programs. However, given the state of some discs, it may be impossible to rip your own after a while. In such cases, I have little problem with acquiring the tracks from some other source. (NOTE: presumption that you actually own the disc here.)

I also buy music from SBI. i personally don't care about the grey areas. I paid for my downloads, sbi is getting their money and so are the artists.. That's good enough for me.

The recording industry has resisted for years the call to allow for direct payment of royalties into the funding formula from the consumer. That is, every time some one mentions the idea of letting the consumer pay royalties directly for the songs/works they want on an individual basis, the industry moves to kill the idea dead.

Besides, can you be sure that the artists are getting the money? The Canadian recoding industy association is currently being sued for not paying its own members and artists for billions in "pending" payments and authorizations.
 
Just for the record, even if you delete songs you don't have off a hard drive, the FBI has ways of recovering them.

There are even ways to trace how many times a particular mp3 has been copied, and the path it took to wind up with you.

Bottom line. Spend the time and rip from your discs like Joe always says.

I also buy music from SBI. i personally don't care about the grey areas. I paid for my downloads, sbi is getting their money and so are the artists.. That's good enough for me.

But the underlying issue is not that I have the song it is that I play it at a commercial venue. It is the trademark infringement that is at the forefront of all of the matters. The fact that someone uses their logo and hasn't paid for it in a commercial setting. If MM or PIO or any of the other defunct companies is not around to complain about it then you have no plaintiff. Therefore no one to sue you.

Do you think if I started copying Montgomery Ward yard tractors that anyone would have anything to say about it? No simply because no one cares if you copy a 10 year old lawn tractor that is no longer made. By the same token no one is going to care that you currently have track 2 on MM 6000 Simple Life by Elton John. This disc was reprinted with tears in heaven because they did not receive the authorization to use the track from the owner. Did MM step up and say you can't use your mm6000? NO they simply left it alone and reprinted the disc with another song.

Heres another example with SC at the front. Do doo ron ron by the crystals. SC was given a warning by the owner of the song and so it was reprinted. (I.E. SC2073, SC7513, SC5096oop). They themselves know this as a violation yet years later after their hand had been slapped here comes SC8968. There is the song again after they have been told not to use it. Do you think the copyright owner suddenly said OK you can use my music? NO time has passed and they are rolling the dice.

KJ example.

"Karaoke police" show up at your show. They check you for compliance. You decide to pay $8500 and be clear of the charges. A year or so passes and 20 more discs have been created and you need new music. You download it off the internet and you are in violation again. Will the karaoke police be back? Probably not. And even if they do you have this piece of paper saying you are in fact legal.

Again I say, "Who can sue me"?

We are not going to be able to stop this epidemic without the cooperation and money of some big manufactures like SC.

Here is my suggestion. It looks like for all intensive purposes SC is out of business with the exception of lawsuits. I want these pirates out of my area. They must have backstock of the discs they have produced even if they aren't still making them.

I will pay the original retail price of $39.95 to fill the gaps in my SC music library. This is a $22 profit per disc(non inclusive of the profit already built in at $17.95) I probably need 300 or so discs to make my set complete. That would be to have the entire spotlight series. This would give you $6600 in profit. In return you come to my area and put the fear of GOD in these laptop KJ's. I am sure that you flashing a business card with two of you here for one weekend would do the trick. So lets add it up: I give you about $12,000 for a good round number. You get $6600 profit. You spend $800 for a round trip ticket for two to my area. You get hotel accommodation for the weekend 2 nights $400. Your eats rental car etc $700. Total a little less than $2000. But I have given you $6600 in profit. When I call you next month and tell you they are back you return and be firmer. I don't think it would take three times for anyone. However if it did you have the money to come back again and $600.

THIS OFFER IS ON THE TABLE!

Does it make more sense for me to offer this or buy a $400 hard drive with 120,000 songs? Wait until they come get me and then take the $8500 and be legal in the eyes of SC. This would be a $3000 savings to me.

NO I don't play like that. It is called ethics. But considering the sleazy nature of these $100 KJ's I know they have none.
 
ffd318 said:
"Karaoke police" show up at your show. They check you for compliance. You decide to pay $8500 and be clear of the charges. A year or so passes and 20 more discs have been created and you need new music. You download it off the internet and you are in violation again. Will the karaoke police be back? Probably not.

ffd318,

First let me say, "Welcome to the forum"!

I find your posts very informative & have enjoyed reading them.

However, without going into too much detail, I believe that if one settles with SC, as stated in your quote above, there are substancial "Audit Terms" one must agree to regarding checking for any pirated SC content in the future after the settlement is agreed to.

I am not accusing you of anything, and just want forum readers to understand the reality, and would suggest that if one wants to get the real facts on what is going on, one should contact the people involved.

I look forward to more comments from you ffd318...
 
ffd318 said:
We are not going to be able to stop this epidemic without the cooperation and money of some big manufactures like SC.

Here is my suggestion. It looks like for all intensive purposes SC is out of business with the exception of lawsuits. I want these pirates out of my area. They must have backstock of the discs they have produced even if they aren't still making them.

I will pay the original retail price of $39.95 to fill the gaps in my SC music library. This is a $22 profit per disc(non inclusive of the profit already built in at $17.95) I probably need 300 or so discs to make my set complete. That would be to have the entire spotlight series. This would give you $6600 in profit. In return you come to my area and put the fear of GOD in these laptop KJ's. I am sure that you flashing a business card with two of you here for one weekend would do the trick. So lets add it up: I give you about $12,000 for a good round number. You get $6600 profit. You spend $800 for a round trip ticket for two to my area. You get hotel accommodation for the weekend 2 nights $400. Your eats rental car etc $700. Total a little less than $2000. But I have given you $6600 in profit. When I call you next month and tell you they are back you return and be firmer. I don't think it would take three times for anyone. However if it did you have the money to come back again and $600.

THIS OFFER IS ON THE TABLE!

This is a great idea!

However, SC only has limited Disc #'s and they do not have their entire catalog anymore.

Why not pitch it to SC themselves anyway? Give them a call....
 
here is something none of you have considered.

material has been deleted from this section

here is my point in which none of you have touched on.


if i were to buy one of these 120,000 song hard drives off craigslist for $400, delete all the sound choice songs, phm songs, chm songs, and anyone else currently in business who could sue me? I mean before this fiasco of "laptop karaoke" dk 1-99 (which i have legally) was the set to have. Music maestro had almost every song ever made until they went out. Pioneer( which i am probably the only one who has a 100% legal set of these cd+g's) made some of the best tracks ever. I would venture to say their sound blows all the manufactures away.

Point being there is plenty out there without the likes of sound choice or phm/chm or chartbuster.

so who would sue me?

i mean is sound choice going to step up and say i can't use a hard drive with dk or mm music on it? I really don't think the "karaoke police" care as long as you are not using whatever manufacture sent them.

And i put just the full discs in a songlist program and only included mm and dkg and it was over 7600 unique titles. If you can't find a song to sing in over 7000 songs maybe karaoke isn't for you.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the thrust of everything you have said. And in one of my recent posts I specifically stated that i don't think SC gives a hoot about what is going on regarding other manufacturer's whose material is being pirated!

As to who can sue "you"? I believe anyone of those labels that you mentioned DK, Pioneer, MM has an owner or successor that is still in business and could sue if they want to. The real question is - is it worth it? Look at all the "gyrations" that SC has gone through before coming up with this "kakamayme" scheme that gets them "nickels" and "dimes"!

BTW: I believe that Nutech owns DK and is still around. I believe that the Pioneer company is still in business though not producing karaoke discs. And based upon what happened to MM, I would have to believe that in their bankruptcy settlement someone got the rights to their library!
 
Just for the record, even if you delete songs you don't have off a hard drive, the FBI has ways of recovering them.

There are even ways to trace how many times a particular mp3 has been copied, and the path it took to wind up with you.

Bottom line. Spend the time and rip from your discs like Joe always says.

I also buy music from SBI. i personally don't care about the grey areas. I paid for my downloads, sbi is getting their money and so are the artists.. That's good enough for me.

Food for thought:

There is one operation I know of with at least 9 drives, one for each KJ!

And I am not familiar with any pirate who is using a laptop that is NOT using an external drive along with the laptop at his show.

Personally, I have access to 6 computers and three of them have software that could run my show. I run my show off of a computer. I own 7 portable and/or external drives. One of my computers has a two internal hard drives.

Which one of the eight "extra" drives (4 external, 3 portable, 1 internal) is used as my "show" drive and which one is functioning as a backup?

Meanwhile, I am a one man operation and completely legit. I stopped carrying my discs with me late last year as well as my cdg deck. But I can and will play discs on my computer. I have also created discs for every group of downloads I have purchased online!

As suggested by ffd318, what if I weren't legit, and what if I didn't own a single SC disc?
1. if I were a pirate and relied upon "lots" of SC tracks, I would submit to SC's offer of a settlement and be ahead of the "game"!
2. if I were a pirate and relied upon a "few" SC tracks, I'd probably make those tracks "disappear"!

As suggested by Proformance, how would SC prove that any SC tracks that exist on a hard drive is being used for commercial purposes, whether legally obtained or not? Perhaps someone has purchased an illegal hard drive and put their legal collection on it, as well? And perhaps they never play the illegal tracks for commercial use at public venues, but rather keep the illegal tracks for their private use and for non-commerical private parties?

And being legit, I have no intention of dealing with SC on their terms if it comes down to it. They can take me to court for infringing on their trademark. And if a jury will find me guilty of trademark infringement because I displayed the SC logo via a computer rather than a cd deck, so be it. I doubt, however, that will ever happen!
 
There are even ways to trace how many times a particular mp3 has been copied, and the path it took to wind up with you.

I don't know where you heard this, but it is 100% BS. When you copy an MP3 (or any file) it is an exact copy. If there was extra data being added in some way to make tracing possible, you would see the file grow with every dupe. You do not. Without extra data, you have no path...just an exact copy of the original.

even if you delete songs you don't have off a hard drive, the FBI has ways of recovering them.

There are also off the shelf programs such as BCWipe that write & re-write over your deleted files using the U.S. Department of Defense (DoD 5220.22-M) data wipe standard to make such recovery impossible. Only $39.95.
 
So, let's say you know where and how to contact someone about purchasing a loaded hard drive with 122,000 karaoke and 13,000 music video...etc... with monthly support for updates for $500.00 on a 1.5TB drive..... what would you do?

A) Arrrr... I be buyin' un me mattie.

B) Turn that scurvey dog in to KAPPA/SC

C) Nothing
 
So, let's say you know where and how to contact someone about purchasing a loaded hard drive with 122,000 karaoke and 13,000 music video...etc... with monthly support for updates for $500.00 on a 1.5TB drive..... what would you do?

A) Arrrr... I be buyin' un me mattie.

B) Turn that scurvey dog in to KAPPA/SC

C) Nothing

C) Nothing

I know of several people who have tried to turn in these kinds of losers before and have consistently been IGNORED.
So why bother?
Besides, why should I do their legwork for them?
It's not hard for SC et al to do a search on Google or eBay and come up with dozens on their own.
You can find tons that way. Just check it out.
All of 30 seconds typing or less.
But do they bother?
Apparently not....
 
C) nothing

I turned a place in that had Sound Choice on a CAVS player and was selling the entire Sound Choice library with purchases of a CAVS jukebox. They did nothing.
 
Well I could still be wrong but my understanding is this information was stored in the SYSTEM files of the computer, which most people know nothing about and therefore do not clean/delete on a regular basis.

But like i said before, I don't know definatively whether or not this is the case.. *shrug*

-James
 
Well I could still be wrong but my understanding is this information was stored in the SYSTEM files of the computer, which most people know nothing about and therefore do not clean/delete on a regular basis.

But like i said before, I don't know definatively whether or not this is the case.. *shrug*

-James
It's definitely not.
 
This is a link to info provided by DanDanTheTaxiMan, one of the accused in SC's sweep of the Phoenix area. Please note that this post was "off-topic" in the thread where is first appeared and most likely will be moved.

http://karaoke-forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=264242&no=1#264242

EDITED at 7:30 pm due to confusion with what the link said and my thoughts below: READ THE LINK TO UNDERSTAND WHAT FOLLOWS

I offer the following "food for thought" regarding that link! Assuming it is an exact copy of what SC provides their targets this is my opinion.

After SEEING that document, even though I have a 1:1 library, I would not submit to the audit as defined in SC's letter. It is too wide in scope and latitude, and I am particularly concerned with:
a. SC states they are after Trademark infringement but they would have to identify every specific track that was NOT purchased and HAS BEEN used at a paid show! Their audit cannot identify what tracks have been used for commercial purposes!
b. In my case, the audit would find tracks I DON'T use in my business but collected as a "hobbyist" before I went into business!
c. SC indicated that they required a CDG for each file in the library along with proof of purchase. I assume proof of purchase is required for SC to be assured that you didn't borrow the disc for the audit. But what if you bought it at a flee market for next to nothing with no receipt? A customer of mine has done just that, several times and I have purchased discs from KJ's who have left the business!
d. SC did not make an exception to the requirement that you have CDG even for files PURCHASED via downloaded.
e. If you have tracks on more than one machine, you must have a CDG for each copy of each track. So while someone running a CDG based show can have multiple backup copies of their CDG's, PC based operations cannot have a single backup HD!

So, for those who previously stated that all a legit operator had to lose by submitting to the audit is TIME, I even disagree now more fervently than before! A legit operator like myself finds, not unexpectedly, justification not to agree to SC audit, those items listed above are some of the main LEGITIMATE reasons why I would not submit to their audit.

In short: SC sets the rules! I don't understand fully what their rules SIGNIFY in terms of future actions SC might bring or cause to be brought against me? I don't accept that their audit or any audit of my computer can show that I have violated a trademark right? I can have 100,000 SC tracks on a HD, but if i never show them in public, I haven't violated any Trademark right!

But based upon their defined audit steps, SC wants to be the judge and jury! And it seems to me that if you accept their audit and they deem you have failed the audit, they will offer you a settlement. If you haven't done anything wrong, THAT IS you haven't played a track of theirs in public that wasn't purchased, why would you accept their offer?

And, then, if you don't accept their settlement offer they up the ante on future settlement offers. If you still reject their settlement (which they state IS NOT a settlement) they threatened to follow through on the law suit. Ah, but will they be suing solely for trademark infringement or also venture into copyright infringement which appears easier to bring as a charge after they review you files and find EVEN ONE non-purchased track!

Let me share one real life example. I have purchased several discs over time from the bargain bin at my local karaoke dealer. Several times I have discovered that the lead vocals where on every track on the disc. Early on, the proprietor informed that I could turn down the volume on the right channel on my deck to overcome the problem, and that worked as long as I remembered to do so. When I ripped the disc to the computer, I put a note on the computer file to turn down the right channel volume, and that also worked so long as I remembered to do so!

Just recently, I discovered that I actually have a ripping program that could eliminate the vocal during the ripping process. I re-ripped the original discs with that new program, and it worked. Every track transferred to the PC excluded the vocal. So, now I don't have to remember to do ANYTHING!

Well, then I wondered, what if I burn the "good" files from the computer onto a "new" CD? Well, I did just that and ended up with 10 CDG's that I no longer have to turn down the right channel on! Guess what I did with the original discs? Yep, dumped 'em so I never use them again by mistake!

BTW using those discs as a reference point, if in the process of performing the audit if SC finds questionable tracks, even if you are able to mitigate away their existence, that doesn't mean SC will accept what you say. And what if the tracks in question aren't even theirs?

And with that said, and generally speaking, I am concerned that SC will use intimidation to get you to settle with them! At the end of their letter, didn't they use intimidation by referring to an actual, but irrelevant (not Trademark Law) court case? And remember, it costs SC a good deal to undertake such an audit. I doubt that they do so expecting to come away with nothing. I am a sure that they never, never complete their efforts without finding some reason to demand that you settle! If nothing else, they can also threaten to tell the other manufacturers what they have found and leave you with the thought that you could become a defendant in multiple suites!

And while it will cost time and money to go to court, I am not about to settle. And I by not submitting to the audit I would only be facing one plaintiff, SC. I'll let the court decide if I have done any harm to SC or broken an laws if I receive such a letter from SC! IMHO, based upon the parameters defined for the SC audit, few if any operators, even disc based ones would be successful in meeting the criteria established!
 
Eric,

Dan Dan probably shouldn't have posted this and you certainly shouldn't have posted it as evidence that he is legit.

b. In my case, the audit would find tracks I DON'T use in my business but collected as a "hobbyist" before I went into business! What he is saying here is yes I have pirated tracks on my system! If these tracks are on the hard drive he uses for the show then he certainly can't say they aren't available for his comercial use.

c. SC indicated that they required a CDG for each file in the library along with proof of purchase. The Ownership of the CDG would be proof of ownership, I too have a large number of CDGs that came through the buyout of other KJs. I assume proof of purchase Assumption is half the problem already!

d. SC did not make an exception to the requirement that you have CDG even for files PURCHASED via downloaded. Sound Choice has never offered their product as a legitimate download for commercial use although it is available in "custom disc" form!

e. If you have tracks on more than one machine, you must have a CDG for each copy of each track. So while someone running a CDG based show can have multiple backup copies of their CDG's, PC based operations cannot have a single backup HD! Again he is wrong here as well the copy is 1:1 regardless of it being a hard drive or disc! Having two hard drives would mean 2:1!

Well, then I wondered, what if I burn the "good" files from the computer onto a "new" CD? Well, I did just that and ended up with 10 CDG's that I no longer have to turn down the right channel on! Guess what I did with the original discs? Yep, dumped 'em so I never use them again by mistake! So he has pirated copies of other disc as well, since I can't recall a single disc that Sound Choice has ever produced that was multiplexed in it's entire content, I don't think he has too much to worry about in that regard! If he dumped them (and I can't think of any business reason for doing something like that, even disc that I take out of my library I still keep just in case) unless he sold them to someone else in which case he is again using pirated disc!

The problem with posting this is he just gave Sound Choice his confession!
 
Dan Dan posted it in a thread that had zero things to do with litigation or piracy by the way. I know that the thread had nothing to do with piracy because I started the thread.
 
Eric,

Dan Dan probably shouldn't have posted this and you certainly shouldn't have posted it as evidence that he is legit.

Dan DIDN'T post any of what you are referring to. I DID! And I didn't post anything with the intentioin of proving that ANYONE IS legit!

And if you didn't have a "gotcha mentality" to begin with you might open your mind to the possibility that I have been right all along - the SC audit is no simple matter and no one should submit to the audit who is innocent. In fact, only the guilty should follow the "audit route"! And I recommend to anyone who hasn't read the letter (see the link) to ignore this post until you do!

Thunder, do you think that you are "Perry Mason" and see the truth, the guilt or innocence that is unseen by all others. And, frankly, I always wonder about those who cast the first stone and immediately label someone a "pirate"

" thunder" said:
in eric's prior post said:
In my case, the audit would find tracks I DON'T use in my business but collected as a "hobbyist" before I went into business!
What he is saying here is yes I have pirated tracks on my system! If these tracks are on the hard drive he uses for the show then he certainly can't say they aren't available for his comercial use.


1. Eric made that point, not Dan. And I am NO pirate! I have spent a lot of money on my library and have purchased discs subsequent to already having the bin files in my possession for that very same disc! It should be clear to anyone other than someone with an accusatory mind, that what I am saying is that I picked up material protected under the "fair use" portion of the copyright statutes that allows me non-commercial use. When obtained, I was not using them for any business or in any commercial setting! Got it?
2. If you read the link you would know that according to SC's audit program they are reviewing what tracks are in the "accused" possession and they are not limiting their review to a "show" drive
3. And just because something is in my possession at a show or at home doesn't put me in violation of any law so long as I DON'T USE IT COMMERCIALLY!

"Thunder" said:
The Ownership of the CDG would be proof of ownership, I too have a large number of CDGs that came through the buyout of other KJs. I assume proof of purchase Assumption is half the problem already!

If you had read the link you would know that in the SC audit program there is no assumption of ownership. And possession of a CDG is not acceptable proof of ownership! They want receipts!

thunder said:
eric said:
d. SC did not make an exception to the requirement that you have CDG even for files PURCHASED via downloaded.
Sound Choice has never offered their product as a legitimate download for commercial use although it is available in "custom disc" form!

Again, if you read the letter (see link) you would realize that they strongly assert that they are representing several manufacturers and auditing everything in you possession, whether SC or not! And most PC based operators are availing themselves of downloads, as should CD based shows!

thunder said:
eric said:
If you have tracks on more than one machine, you must have a CDG for each copy of each track. So while someone running a CDG based show can have multiple backup copies of their CDG's, PC based operations cannot have a single backup HD!
Again he is wrong here as well the copy is 1:1 regardless of it being a hard drive or disc! Having two hard drives would mean 2:1!

We'll just agree to disagree here. If I were involved I would be quite happy leaving the determination to the courts. And so far there isn't a single precedent in that regard!

"thunder" said:
eric said:
Well, then I wondered, what if I burn the "good" files from the computer onto a "new" CD? Well, I did just that and ended up with 10 CDG's that I no longer have to turn down the right channel on! Guess what I did with the original discs? Yep, dumped 'em so I never use them again by mistake!
So he has pirated copies of other disc as well, since I can't recall a single disc that Sound Choice has ever produced that was multiplexed in it's entire content, I don't think he has too much to worry about in that regard! If he dumped them (and I can't think of any business reason for doing something like that, even disc that I take out of my library I still keep just in case) unless he sold them to someone else in which case he is again using pirated disc!

How really _____ are you thunder?
1. you owe dan an apology for slandering him all over this thread
2. you owe me an apology as well for the same slanderous statements.
3. the discs I got rid of, for the most part, were oddball manufacturers not SC
4. the discs WERE NOT MULTIPLEX, they were manufactured incorrectly and sold at a discount!
5. how dare you insinuate I sold the junk to anyone (I only paid $2 for them)
6. and if you can't think of a business reason for me to dispose of a problem (i would forget to turn the vocal off before the singer began) then you shouldn't BE in business

[quote="thunder]The problem with posting this is he just gave Sound Choice his confession![/quote]

And as I said in my post, let SC come and get me. I'll be happy to go to court! And as for you, Thunder, why don't you just volunteer for the audit, since it involves little effort and you can then report back to the rest of us Pirates who don't want any part of it just how effortless and unobtrusive it is!
 
Just so you know the Dan Eric is referring to isn't me. But I can attest that it was posted on another forum in a thread started by me.

Let me reiterate, what I posted, after providing the link to the SC letter, did not come from anybody named "dan", it came from me!

I don't know what's so confusing?
But now we have one Dan who WAS IN FACT maligned and another Dan who is making sure we know it was NOT him who thunder was maligning!

Good work, thunder!
 
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