What's new

Sound Choice Litigation - Worst Fears A Reality

Status
Not open for further replies.
Eric reread My post I said that the dan referred to in post#225 about the SC letter was not me.
The thread it was in was one I started, which had nothing to do with piracy in the first place.
 
Let me reiterate, what I posted, after providing the link to the SC letter, did not come from anybody named "dan", it came from me!

I don't know what's so confusing?
But now we have one Dan who WAS IN FACT maligned and another Dan who is making sure we know it was NOT him who thunder was maligning!

Good work, thunder!

Ok first off I can not speak for Thunder but, I read your post too and it appeared that not only were you linking to what was a post by someone named Dan you seemed to be reposting it here just in case it got moved out of the thread you linked too.... as you had indicated might happen.

So, I assumed that, that was the case and probably would have responded similarily as if it were NOT a post by you but a post by another being quoted.

So lets drop this, maligning bull crap and get back to the thread, ok?
 
Eric reread My post I said that the dan referred to in post#225 about the SC letter was not me.
The thread it was in was one I started, which had nothing to do with piracy in the first place.
Dan, re-read MY post! Now I am even more confused about what is so confusing?

"eric" said:
I don't know what's so confusing?
But now we have one Dan who WAS IN FACT maligned and another Dan (THAT IS YOU, DannyGKaraoke) who is making sure we know it was NOT him who thunder was maligning!

jokerswild said:
Ok first off I can not speak for Thunder but, I read your post too and it appeared that not only were you linking to what was a post by someone named Dan you seemed to be reposting it here just in case it got moved out of the thread you linked too.... as you had indicated might happen.

So, I assumed that, that was the case and probably would have responded similarily as if it were NOT a post by you but a post by another being quoted.

So why would BOTH you and thunder assume that I would give a link and then repost it in its entirety and then neither of you even tried the link which is still there?

jokerswild said:
So lets drop this, maligning bull crap and get back to the thread, ok?

Why would you condone AND call "bull crap" what I consider to be insulting slander? What if I said the problem I just encountered came about because of laziness, poor reading comprehension, and the proclivity of jumping to assumptions and conclusions? Would that be maligning enough to exceed the "bull crap" standard just imposed on the term "pirate"?

As we ask of our congressmen that "they read the bill" ---- READ THE LINK! And, of course, not having read the link, YOU, jokerswild state that you would have jumped to the same assumptions as thunder, and everything he said was an assumption based upon a lack of factS! And with almost a complete lack of facts, you too I ASSUME would start to accuse people falsely of pirating! And the biggest assumption thunder made is that the SC audit claims to address only SC product when they claim in their letter that is not the case
 
So why would BOTH you and thunder assume that I would give a link and then repost it in its entirety and then neither of you even tried the link which is still there?

It is not uncommon for folks to post a link here to an article or another post and then proceed to re-post it in part or in whole because either the post is temporary or they are just saving the reader the time of linking to it just in case there are problems with the link in the first place.

No I did not follow the link as that was my exact assumption. I have no idea what Steve's (Thunder) assumptions were.

Why would you condone AND call "bull crap" what I consider to be insulting slander? What if I said the problem I just encountered came about because of laziness, poor reading comprehension, and the proclivity of jumping to assumptions and conclusions? Would that be maligning enough to exceed the "bull crap" standard just imposed on the term "pirate"?

First off nothing I read in Thunder's post was sladerous in any way as I read it. Second I did not state anything to the effect that the term pirate was bull crap or any kind of crap in general. What I stated was I felt that saying Thunder was sladering and maligning anyone was way off base. I did not find anything in his post that suggested that he was attempting to defame anyone and was mearly posting a rebutle so therefor my original statement asking for the bull crap to stop stands.

As we ask of our congressmen that "they read the bill" ---- READ THE LINK!

See my answers in blue don't like 'em tough.
 
This is a link to info provided by DanDanTheTaxiMan, one of the accused in SC's sweep of the Phoenix area. Please note that this post was "off-topic" in the thread where is first appeared and most likely will be moved.

http://karaoke-forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=264242&no=1#264242

EDITED at 7:30 pm due to confusion with what the link said and my thoughts below: READ THE LINK TO UNDERSTAND WHAT FOLLOWS

I offer the following "food for thought" regarding that link! Assuming it is an exact copy of what SC provides their targets this is my opinion.

After SEEING that document, even though I have a 1:1 library, I would not submit to the audit as defined in SC's letter. It is too wide in scope and latitude, and I am particularly concerned with:
a. SC states they are after Trademark infringement but they would have to identify every specific track that was NOT purchased and HAS BEEN used at a paid show! Their audit cannot identify what tracks have been used for commercial purposes!
b. In my case, the audit would find tracks I DON'T use in my business but collected as a "hobbyist" before I went into business!
c. SC indicated that they required a CDG for each file in the library along with proof of purchase. I assume proof of purchase is required for SC to be assured that you didn't borrow the disc for the audit. But what if you bought it at a flee market for next to nothing with no receipt? A customer of mine has done just that, several times and I have purchased discs from KJ's who have left the business!
d. SC did not make an exception to the requirement that you have CDG even for files PURCHASED via downloaded.
e. If you have tracks on more than one machine, you must have a CDG for each copy of each track. So while someone running a CDG based show can have multiple backup copies of their CDG's, PC based operations cannot have a single backup HD!

So, for those who previously stated that all a legit operator had to lose by submitting to the audit is TIME, I even disagree now more fervently than before! A legit operator like myself finds, not unexpectedly, justification not to agree to SC audit, those items listed above are some of the main LEGITIMATE reasons why I would not submit to their audit.

In short: SC sets the rules! I don't understand fully what their rules SIGNIFY in terms of future actions SC might bring or cause to be brought against me? I don't accept that their audit or any audit of my computer can show that I have violated a trademark right? I can have 100,000 SC tracks on a HD, but if i never show them in public, I haven't violated any Trademark right!

But based upon their defined audit steps, SC wants to be the judge and jury! And it seems to me that if you accept their audit and they deem you have failed the audit, they will offer you a settlement. If you haven't done anything wrong, THAT IS you haven't played a track of theirs in public that wasn't purchased, why would you accept their offer?

And, then, if you don't accept their settlement offer they up the ante on future settlement offers. If you still reject their settlement (which they state IS NOT a settlement) they threatened to follow through on the law suit. Ah, but will they be suing solely for trademark infringement or also venture into copyright infringement which appears easier to bring as a charge after they review you files and find EVEN ONE non-purchased track!

Let me share one real life example. I have purchased several discs over time from the bargain bin at my local karaoke dealer. Several times I have discovered that the lead vocals where on every track on the disc. Early on, the proprietor informed that I could turn down the volume on the right channel on my deck to overcome the problem, and that worked as long as I remembered to do so. When I ripped the disc to the computer, I put a note on the computer file to turn down the right channel volume, and that also worked so long as I remembered to do so!

Just recently, I discovered that I actually have a ripping program that could eliminate the vocal during the ripping process. I re-ripped the original discs with that new program, and it worked. Every track transferred to the PC excluded the vocal. So, now I don't have to remember to do ANYTHING!

Well, then I wondered, what if I burn the "good" files from the computer onto a "new" CD? Well, I did just that and ended up with 10 CDG's that I no longer have to turn down the right channel on! Guess what I did with the original discs? Yep, dumped 'em so I never use them again by mistake!

BTW using those discs as a reference point, if in the process of performing the audit if SC finds questionable tracks, even if you are able to mitigate away their existence, that doesn't mean SC will accept what you say. And what if the tracks in question aren't even theirs?

And with that said, and generally speaking, I am concerned that SC will use intimidation to get you to settle with them! At the end of their letter, didn't they use intimidation by referring to an actual, but irrelevant (not Trademark Law) court case? And remember, it costs SC a good deal to undertake such an audit. I doubt that they do so expecting to come away with nothing. I am a sure that they never, never complete their efforts without finding some reason to demand that you settle! If nothing else, they can also threaten to tell the other manufacturers what they have found and leave you with the thought that you could become a defendant in multiple suites!

And while it will cost time and money to go to court, I am not about to settle. And I by not submitting to the audit I would only be facing one plaintiff, SC. I'll let the court decide if I have done any harm to SC or broken an laws if I receive such a letter from SC! IMHO, based upon the parameters defined for the SC audit, few if any operators, even disc based ones would be successful in meeting the criteria established!

See bold above.... I stand corrected you did state that it was your opinion.... I must have glazed over that sentence in a sea of sentences.... even still all Thunder did was state his opinion on what HE must have surmized from your post as being the real fact by employing an age old technique of reading between the lines. Right or wrong that was his interpritation and I do not see any intent of slander or maligning anyone.
 
I have some thoughts and would like to solicit other people's opinions about what 1:1 is.

IMHO:
If a kj makes a copy of his CDG library SOLELY in case a disc gets damaged that's 1:1
He doesn't use his backup while his main library is in use that's 1:1
If he uses his backup while his main library is not in use, that's 1:1
However, if a kj makes dups of his CDG library in case his library gets lost or stolen and replaces the library with said dups. THAT IS NOT 1:1. That's why we have insurance. And surely the originals are still in circulation

If a kj makes a copy of his computer bin files in case he encoutners a computer problem, or corrupted file(s) or the equipment is lost or stolen, he is still 1:1
(a) that assumes he could be 1:1 in the first place - an unanswered question at this time.
(b) he still has in his possession his originals and that is the case even if the equipment were stolen, so no legal copy of the library is in circulation. Who ever has the equipment has an illegal copy!
 
[After SEEING that document, even though I have a 1:1 library, I would not submit to the audit as defined in SC's letter. It is too wide in scope and latitude, and I am particularly concerned with:
a. SC states they are after Trademark infringement but they would have to identify every specific track that was NOT purchased and HAS BEEN used at a paid show! Their audit cannot identify what tracks have been used for commercial purposes!
b. In my case, the audit would find tracks I DON'T use in my business but collected as a "hobbyist" before I went into business!
c. SC indicated that they required a CDG for each file in the library along with proof of purchase. I assume proof of purchase is required for SC to be assured that you didn't borrow the disc for the audit. But what if you bought it at a flee market for next to nothing with no receipt? A customer of mine has done just that, several times and I have purchased discs from KJ's who have left the business!
d. SC did not make an exception to the requirement that you have CDG even for files PURCHASED via downloaded.
e. If you have tracks on more than one machine, you must have a CDG for each copy of each track. So while someone running a CDG based show can have multiple backup copies of their CDG's, PC based operations cannot have a single backup HD!

So, for those who previously stated that all a legit operator had to lose by submitting to the audit is TIME, I even disagree now more fervently than before! !

Thank you Eric. As I have stated previously, anyone who allows an audit without AT LEAST a disinterested third party as a witness, and ideally an attorney present, is just plain lacking business sense. Add to that, SC's current complete lack of position in the karaoke music publishing industry and having no government authority to ask in the first place makes submitting to any audit from them almost ridiculous. Nothing to gain, and a loss of time and money ( especially if you are smart enough to have an attorney present) for sure. Pass.
 
d. SC did not make an exception to the requirement that you have CDG even for files PURCHASED via downloaded. Sound Choice has never offered their product as a legitimate download for commercial use although it is available in "custom disc" form!
!

Half true. As previously shown, SC DID offer downloads to and through third party sites. A layer of "protection". They have even admitted to the now defunct Australian site, though they fudge with the "For iPODs only" tag, though perfectly capable of use with a PC.

However, you are half correct. None of the downloads were "legitimate" in terms of licensing.
 
What is your opinion on this?

Coincidentally, karaoke entered my home at this time of year as a Christmas gift to my daughter. That was back in 2001.

The equipment was made by Singing Machine and played both CD's and tapes. I bought the unit at Best Buy and the only tracks they had available were on cassettes from Priddis.

And whenever the machine was used for Karaoke, there were three factors to work with that were troublesome:
1) no on-screen graphics
2) Priddis provided no indicator as to where on the tapes each song began
3) The Singing Machine had no tape "counter", so even if the tape had offered a "marker" for the start of each track it wouldn't have mattered

Eventually, the novelty of karaoke wore off for my daughter and she stopped using the machine. It ended up I was the only one using it, but since it was hers, I wouldn't remove it from her room when I did!

After a couple of years, I bought it from her for what I had paid for it. And one of the first things I did was to SHIFT the tracks from tape to CD's. At least with the CD's the media was more secure compared as tapes could get damaged in the machine. But more important, I recorded distinct tracks on the CD's so that the start of any track could be easily found.

Anyway, until I replaced each every one of those tracks with a track on a CDG, I used those CD's and lyric sheets when I first started doing karaoke shows.

Since I had SHIFTED MEDIA and then used the tracks commercially, were those tracks illegal?
 
Eric,

I am sorry you posted your acts of piracy!

I am sorry that you posted Dan Dan's acts of piracy!

I am sorry that you don't see acts of piracy the same way I do!

I am sorry you didn't delete all the songs from your hard drive that you didn't have disc for as I did (yes I HAD songs on my drive that were not legit)

I am sorry that my views of what is going on are different from your views (I happen to think mine are correct)!

I am sorry if the copy of the Copy Right Laws I have read are different from the ones you are reading, the ones I am reading can be found here http://www.copyright.gov/title17/ )

Trademark Law can be found here http://www.uspto.gov/trademarks/law/index.jsp
 
thunder said:
Eric,

I am sorry you posted your acts of piracy!
I am sorry that you posted Dan Dan's acts of piracy!
I am sorry that you don't see acts of piracy the same way I do!
I am sorry you didn't delete all the songs from your hard drive that you didn't have disc for as I did (yes I HAD songs on my drive that were not legit)
I am sorry that my views of what is going on are different from your views (I happen to think mine are correct)!


No need to be sorry for me.

I am sorry for you! Why?

1. You say I have revealed my acts of piracy! FACT, if I have never used the questionable material commercially, BY DEFINITION no ones trademark has been infringed upon no matter how you like to interpret the law!

2. I am sorry that you see everything in black and white and ignore the spirit of the law, which often comes into play!

3. I am sorry that you somehow found in what I provided revelations of piracy on the part of DanDanTheTaximan. How did you draw that conclusion? Neither Dan himself (per the link I provided) nor anything I posted in this thread said ANYTHING about what Dan does! And in my posts regarding the SC letter I only discussed myself! And, I feel that i am at a an extreme disadvantage here having to "defend" myself against statements from someone who can't seem to follow the information I have provided. If you could follow it, you would have already known what is included in #4. below!

4. But more important, I am sorry for you because you see pirating differently than SC. According to SC letter they have software that will pick up every file you say you deleted. So, that makes you a pirate according to their audit techniques and objectives!

So, go ahead. Invite SC auditors in. Share some coffee with them and enjoy their settlement offer!
 
4. But more important, I am sorry for you because you see pirating differently than SC. According to SC letter they have software that will pick up every file you say you deleted. So, that makes you a pirate according to their audit techniques and objectives!

So, go ahead. Invite SC auditors in. Share some coffee with them and enjoy their settlement offer!

This last statement is Pure BS whether it came directly from you or from Sound Choice....
 
"Jokerswild said:
"by ericlater" said:
4. But more important, I am sorry for you because you see pirating differently than SC. According to SC letter they have software that will pick up every file you say you deleted. So, that makes you a pirate according to their audit techniques and objectives!

So, go ahead. Invite SC auditors in. Share some coffee with them and enjoy their settlement offer!
This last statement is Pure BS whether it came directly from you or from Sound Choice...

I am not sure, Jokerswild, what you are referring to as being BS?

And please recall that my discussions of the SC letter assumes that the document I read is a true representation of it. It was provided by one of the accused and no one from SC has denied its accuracy!

From that link you will find these paragraphs (shown in red):
F. Sound Choice may employ software designed to examine any hard drives in your possession to determine whether songs have been deleted from the system after Sound Choice’s investigation began. A deleted track file may indicate an attempt at spoliation and constitute evidence of willful infringement, as well as an audit failure.

PLEASE NOTE: I don't know what SC refers to when they say, after Sound Choice's investigation began? There are several way of defining the expanse of time that they are referring to! And only they are in control of making the call during the audit on how to view deleted files!

I am also annoyed by their expectation of auditing every HD in my possession. Demanding to audit drives in my possession doesn't define ownership, location of the drive at the time of audit, or where and for what purpose is the drive used! And considering my circumstances, that is not a reasonable request!

D. You should also assemble for inspection all of your song lists and receipts from disc purchases made within the last five years. Receipts for disc purchases may be verified against seller records to prevent falsification. Discs acquired after Sound Choice’s initial investigation will be matched against load dates on your system to determine whether infringement occurred prior to acquisition of the disc. An indication of a track loaded before purchase will be considered an indication of infringement and will constitute failure of the audit.

PLEASE NOTE: According to paragraph D, an indication of a track being loaded prior to the date on the receipt of purchase will be considered an indication of infringement and will constitute failure of the audit. And why receipts only for the last 5 years; why not 3 years? The IRS retention period, I believe, is 7 years? BTW, most pirates don't have song books/lists!

POI: A bunch of friends, including my family, engaged in home-based karaoke parties starting back 11 years ago. I had purchased a system for my daughter and one other person had purchased back in 2002 a 3-draw JVC unit which came with the complete SGB series. Those SGB discs were the first CDG's I ever copied. I also burned them onto my computer! And those SGB bin files are on my show computer! Why do I use them commercially? I do so because I have since purchased the entire SGB collection.

HOWEVER, I would fail the audit because my purchase of those discs came long after the "creation date" shown in the "file properties" window on my computer! Of course, there is software that I could use to change those dates! So, theoretically, I could go around and around with SC. But I won't because I'll go to court if it comes to it!

And going to court and denying the audit is exactly what DanDanTheTaximan is doing. He seems to have a good deal of legal experience and has researched the appropriate statutes. He doesn't understand how there is any basis for a trademark infringement case, even if one is using pirated discs, which he is not! But that's a different issue for another day!
 
Keep in mind you are being asked to sign this Agreement AFTER reading and agreeing to it.

If you sign it and can't comply, you are a fool/and or a pirate.

This agreement is sent with the BELIEF ( their belief) that they have evidence.

Whether they do or not remains to be seen in the case mentioned. Until I see a judgement, I will assume nothing.

If SC drops a case against someone, that will be good enough too. THAT CASE !

Peace,

Lee
 
Eric,

Has Sound Choice sent you a letter saying they think you are in violation?

Do you have tracks on your show hard drive which you don't have on CDG?

If not what are you worried about?

If you do how can you claim they are not for commercial use?

I did not read the link you posted because it came up as a dead link. I could only assume that what you posted was excerpts from Dan Dan's posting! Since they were not, am I to assume that they were all directly from you and your situation?

Just a point here, because I do have a little experience in the courts...... There is no spirit of the law, it is what it says, yes lawyers and judges can screw with the interputation of a law but for the most part they go by what is written.
 
Eric: Those statements are scare tactics... designed to make the recepient go "Oh, God... I'm F'd, I'll have to settle."... assumeing they are a pirate in the first place.... for someone like me and hopefully yourself it only makes us laugh.
 
Eric,

I am sorry you posted your acts of piracy!

I am sorry that you posted Dan Dan's acts of piracy!

I am sorry that you don't see acts of piracy the same way I do!

I am sorry you didn't delete all the songs from your hard drive that you didn't have disc for as I did (yes I HAD songs on my drive that were not legit)
And didn't you just post YOUR acts of piracy?
If I am wrong, I apologize, but hello, pot? Kettle calling!
 
This last statement is Pure BS whether it came directly from you or from Sound Choice....
If you are referring to the the statement "According to SC letter they have software that will pick up every file you say you deleted"
Then it is NOT BS.
I have seen the "KARAOKE LIBRARY AUDIT
ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF TERMS" myself and it does indicate that they wish to install software on your machine that can detect deleted songs. I will start a new thread and post the contents there.
You CAN undelete files that you would think should be long gone.
I've done it myself.
Just do a google search for undelete and dozens of programs come up. Some don't work worth crap, but others work very well indeed!
 
And didn't you just post YOUR acts of piracy?
If I am wrong, I apologize, but hello, pot? Kettle calling!


Yes I did! I am not shy about stating the truth! At one time I did have files that I did not have legit disc for, I have eliminated those files from my drive. Even though back in the day I did have SC 8125 that disc was broken and I can't find the broken disc so I only had a burned copy of it, I removed those files from my system. My system is now pristine, with 1:1 ratio of disc I can actually produce!

The pot is calling the kettle black but at least the pot is honest in stating the facts!
 
Well, the terms of the audit make it clear that SC is "fishing" for as much evidence as it can get for suing more and more people. In NC, one of the KJs who "settled" just received he boxes of SC discs, and is waiting for the signed copy of the contract to come back. I haven't seen the document yet, so I don't know if the KJ is screwed by SC or not.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top