And It's NOT The Pirates Anyway- NON-SC!

[Guest]

So exactly how much was displayed on that $300 nineteen-inch television when you were running these tapes????

I never used tapes, I used the Laser system!

 

[JoeChartreuse]

The computer is not dumbing down the market, it is raising the effective minimum job requirements and technical proficiency. The less technically eductaed a person is the less successful they will be.
.

I would have to disagree. Computers have dumbed down the market, just as Windows has dumbed down the computer, which is good for the average consumer, but not for us.

Windows dumbed down the computer to the point where virtually anyone can use one. Anyone who can use one can run KJ or DJ software. Done.

Of course, those of us in these fields for awhile understand that being able to do so is only the smallest part of doing the job, but the entry level folks do not, and here they are.

Some will learn on the job and hang in, and some will fail. However, the failures will quickly be replaced by more newbies, and the cycle continues.

 

[JoeChartreuse]

So exactly how much was displayed on that $300 nineteen-inch television when you were running these tapes????

Chip, that was me who started with cassette tapes. Of course there was no monitor in use. Lyric sheets only, and a vast library of maybe 100 -150 songs..:sqembarrassed:

At that time I was more of a DJ, but did karaoke at private affairs- mostly Lions Club dinners and such.

 

[Guest]

I would have to disagree. Computers have dumbed down the market, just as Windows has dumbed down the computer, which is good for the average consumer, but not for us.

Windows dumbed down the computer to the point where virtually anyone can use one. Anyone who can use one can run KJ or DJ software. Done.

Of course, those of us in these fields for awhile understand that being able to do so is only the smallest part of doing the job, but the entry level folks do not, and here they are.

Some will learn on the job and hang in, and some will fail. However, the failures will quickly be replaced by more newbies, and the cycle continues.

That's not at all what I see.
I work with dozens of DJs and DJ companies in Greater Boston, and by and large the typical DJ is quite short on serious technical knowlegde.

Windows has brought computing to the avergae consumer - but interfacing is still by and large the domain of professionals. Life in the real world is not Plug-N-Play.

Without meaningful development in technical proficiencies the DJs working universe continues to shrink as the tide of consumer friendly devices and softwares rise. The "crowded" conditions many peolpe feel are the result of having landed on the beach and failing to move inland.

Even the SoundChoice issues are for the most part, the result of one comapny failing to anticipate change.

 

[Sounds To Go]

The "crowded" conditions many peolpe feel are the result of having landed on the beach and failing to move inland.

True on so many levels on both KJ & DJ sides. :sqcool:

 

[coocoo4karaoke]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been reading and participating in buttload of piracy threads.

I had a long, productive, and maybe even a bit adversarial phone conversation with one of our members yesterday. After I hung up, I harkened back to some of the things that I spoke of, and reflected a bit more.


The current economy, second only to the Great Depression in depth, has put MILLIONS out of work- For VERY long periods. Certain age groups and income groups have been affected a lot more than others.

Here in the northeast, many folks, especially middle income people over 45, have been out of work for YEARS. Current employers are looking generally looking to pay grad school wage, and look for people they see as not "set in their ways" ( Read young and cheap).

We have, since the 60's and 70's almost 3 times as many people competing for HALF the jobs that were available then.

OK, the above was to establish a point that there are a LOT of hungry folks out there.

Imagine these folks seeing, USED IN PUBLIC, PCs ( which most have in their homes) and MP3s used by KJs and DJs.

WOW! A way to make at least SOME income.

They buy a couple of powered speakers, and a couple of other things, and they are a DJ/KJ ( or at least THEY think so).

Imagine being able to start a business for under a grand, and having the costs paid off almost instantly!

Let's talk karaoke for a sec. Yes, pirated music can cut down on the start up cost. But it's not really all that neccesary!

When I switched to CD+G from laser ( and prior to laser I was cassette/lyric sheet) I bought 66 SGB discs for under $100, and I think 18 SuperCore sics for around $185, plus a smattering of MM for oldies. That got me around 1500 songs. I'm sure there are plenty of cheap DJ sets out there too.

Despite brand oriented KJ's opinions, my own experience proves that one can START with anything, and still become succesful ( I know a guy who's been at it for years, and actually carries...ready?.... total of about 800 songs).)

Anyway, a beginner player can probably be had for around $100, which would include basic effects like echo, delay, and keychange.

Nady UHF mics or SHURE PG-48 wired mics can be had around the $50 mark.

A monitor? Got a 12 or 15" TV around the house? No? How about going to Walgreens and picking up a Venturer 15" LCD monitor for around $125.

Powered speakers? Few hundred bucks for some brand off of e-bay.


Non-pirate, and STILL under a grand.

Now he/she has to break into the market. How to do that....hmmmm....

A price that would be considered VERY low in my region- say $100.

Ten shows, and the investment is paid for. From that point on, the KJ is doing something he or she hasn't done in maybe a few years- bringing SOME money home every week.

If they become more successful, they raise pricing to more standard rates. They improve their equipment and their libraries.

A SLIP IN: Skip the "cheap equipment/ small library show will never last in MY market" bit. Most people here started with less and upgraded. BTW, that's also sound business procedure. You don't invest the farm on a new business venture- over 60% have always failed ( now, probably higher).

Even if they DO fail, and many will, it was a cheap investment for a possible brass ring.


So, you have millions of people out of work, that have discovered a cheap way to provide themselves with SOME income. They have been shown ( or at least given the perception) with PCs and MP3s, that this sort of work is easy prepare for and do ( ). They don't even HAVE to be PC based. The point is, this display is what made it all look so easy.

Bad economy, low cost, income producing business opportunity + millions of people without a job = MASSIVE influx of newbies and wannabes.

Piracy doesn't even come CLOSE to what the economy is doing...


Just my 0.314 cents

Whooo, I loved your post. I too have been getting addicted to this forum. My friends spoke to three different vendors. All from ebay. One of the sellers offered upwards of 70,000 karaoke and dj songs on a laptop. Another seller offered her under 10,000 songs of just karaoke for more than the other store that was giving a lot more. After some research, they find out that the company selling the butt load of music on a laptop was being sued and talked about all over the internet.. Of course that's why I found it too.

My friend spoke to the other vendor that was selling far less for more and that vendor told her that piracy really hurts everyone. That the people selling the product hurt too. The people investing in product to resale have homes to save in this economy too. I believe that you are right about the economy and at the same time, the retailers and karaoke disc manufacturers are hurting bad over these people that go on craigslist, ebay, etc and sell pirated material. The karaoke host like us hurts too when we lose a gig because some 18yr. old punk walks through the door with 100,000 songs on a laptop and you have a whole box of disc you bought and even with your computer and your 7-12,000 songs, you are gonna lose your job. PIRACY kills this industry.

 

[ericlater]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been reading and participating in buttload of piracy threads.

I had a long, productive, and maybe even a bit adversarial phone conversation with one of our members yesterday. After I hung up, I harkened back to some of the things that I spoke of, and reflected a bit more.


The current economy, second only to the Great Depression in depth, has put MILLIONS out of work- For VERY long periods. Certain age groups and income groups have been affected a lot more than others.

Here in the northeast, many folks, especially middle income people over 45, have been out of work for YEARS. Current employers are looking generally looking to pay grad school wage, and look for people they see as not "set in their ways" ( Read young and cheap).

We have, since the 60's and 70's almost 3 times as many people competing for HALF the jobs that were available then.

OK, the above was to establish a point that there are a LOT of hungry folks out there.

Imagine these folks seeing, USED IN PUBLIC, PCs ( which most have in their homes) and MP3s used by KJs and DJs.

WOW! A way to make at least SOME income.

They buy a couple of powered speakers, and a couple of other things, and they are a DJ/KJ ( or at least THEY think so).

Imagine being able to start a business for under a grand, and having the costs paid off almost instantly!

Let's talk karaoke for a sec. Yes, pirated music can cut down on the start up cost. But it's not really all that neccesary!

When I switched to CD+G from laser ( and prior to laser I was cassette/lyric sheet) I bought 66 SGB discs for under $100, and I think 18 SuperCore sics for around $185, plus a smattering of MM for oldies. That got me around 1500 songs. I'm sure there are plenty of cheap DJ sets out there too.

Despite brand oriented KJ's opinions, my own experience proves that one can START with anything, and still become succesful ( I know a guy who's been at it for years, and actually carries...ready?.... total of about 800 songs).)

Anyway, a beginner player can probably be had for around $100, which would include basic effects like echo, delay, and keychange.

Nady UHF mics or SHURE PG-48 wired mics can be had around the $50 mark.

A monitor? Got a 12 or 15" TV around the house? No? How about going to Walgreens and picking up a Venturer 15" LCD monitor for around $125.

Powered speakers? Few hundred bucks for some brand off of e-bay.


Non-pirate, and STILL under a grand.

Now he/she has to break into the market. How to do that....hmmmm....

A price that would be considered VERY low in my region- say $100.

Ten shows, and the investment is paid for. From that point on, the KJ is doing something he or she hasn't done in maybe a few years- bringing SOME money home every week.

If they become more successful, they raise pricing to more standard rates. They improve their equipment and their libraries.

A SLIP IN: Skip the "cheap equipment/ small library show will never last in MY market" bit. Most people here started with less and upgraded. BTW, that's also sound business procedure. You don't invest the farm on a new business venture- over 60% have always failed ( now, probably higher).

Even if they DO fail, and many will, it was a cheap investment for a possible brass ring.


So, you have millions of people out of work, that have discovered a cheap way to provide themselves with SOME income. They have been shown ( or at least given the perception) with PCs and MP3s, that this sort of work is easy prepare for and do ( ). They don't even HAVE to be PC based. The point is, this display is what made it all look so easy.

Bad economy, low cost, income producing business opportunity + millions of people without a job = MASSIVE influx of newbies and wannabes.

Piracy doesn't even come CLOSE to what the economy is doing...


Just my 0.314 cents

You're overlooking an important factor; you are minimizing the effect(s) of the mulit-rigging pirates, particularly those who had established themselves before the current economic downtown. These outfits have a multitude of advantages over the single rig legal operator.
A. If nothing else, if I have one gig a week and lose that gig,
(1) I have no income from karaoke and am not a "competitor" to anyone at the moment
(2) I have no current job to tell a prospective venue about or invite them out to observe
(3) the attendance at my karaoke "shows" is diminishing, not growing and growing is an imperative for SUCCESSFULLY staying in business
B. Successful multi-riggers can rely on the income generated by their shows and use their time for promoting, while most other karaoke hosts need to hold down some other full time job
C. Successful multi-riggers rely upon hired help to run their shows and while gigs come and go, the owner is out drumming up new business, which will if nothing else offset the inevitable loss of jobs. Meanwhile, in spite of such loses multi-riggers have continued to grow the NET number of jobs they manage even in this economy
D. Is there any venue who wouldn't want to consider hiring a "successful" multi-rigger whose website displays 15 karaoke jobs a week?
E. The typical multi-riggers I am familiar with works with bare-bone minimum equipment. I know one operator who sends out one speaker per rig!

 

[ericlater]

I would have to disagree. Computers have dumbed down the market, just as Windows has dumbed down the computer, which is good for the average consumer, but not for us.

Windows dumbed down the computer to the point where virtually anyone can use one. Anyone who can use one can run KJ or DJ software. Done.

Of course, those of us in these fields for awhile understand that being able to do so is only the smallest part of doing the job, but the entry level folks do not, and here they are.

Some will learn on the job and hang in, and some will fail. However, the failures will quickly be replaced by more newbies, and the cycle continues.

That's not at all what I see.
I work with dozens of DJs and DJ companies in Greater Boston, and by and large the typical DJ is quite short on serious technical knowlegde.

Windows has brought computing to the avergae consumer - but interfacing is still by and large the domain of professionals. Life in the real world is not Plug-N-Play.

Without meaningful development in technical proficiencies the DJs working universe continues to shrink as the tide of consumer friendly devices and softwares rise. The "crowded" conditions many peolpe feel are the result of having landed on the beach and failing to move inland.

Even the SoundChoice issues are for the most part, the result of one comapny failing to anticipate change.

(Q) When did having a computer become a prerequisite for running a karaoke show?
(A) When all of the karaoke newbie's libraries were illegal and deposited on a hard drive

 

[Scott Hanna]

I would have to disagree. Computers have dumbed down the market, just as Windows has dumbed down the computer, which is good for the average consumer, but not for us.

Windows dumbed down the computer to the point where virtually anyone can use one. Anyone who can use one can run KJ or DJ software. Done.

I disagree. I was doing karaoke with laser discs and cd's. ANYONE can run a CDG player. I can teach a complete rock head how to look up a song and put it in a player. There is no special skill required in using disc based karaoke players. Does anybody know anyone that couldn't hack it as a KJ because they couldn't get the hang of a cd player? The skill of a talented KJ never was, and never will be, being "good" at using a cd player or a computer.

Windows has made computers easier to use, which drove up demand, which drove down prices while making it worth the investment to make better stronger, computers.

Windows did not "dumb down" the computer. It made it possible for people that didn't want to spend lots of time learning how to interface with a computer to be able to reap benefits from it. But computers still got much better for those that want to take advantage of it's constantly improving capabilities.

I do agree that the piracy level has increased with the use of computers. But this is where the future is. If karaoke is to survive, the manufacturers as well as the companies selling the rights to the music.... have to figure out a way to make money selling these as computer files. That is how most KJs(not all) want them.

 

[KjAthena]

Our company is a multi-rig we have 3 complete systems (no bare bones here)and have done as many as 16 shows per week. DH does ALOT of promotion, networking, book updating, disc buying, ripping and training along with runnings shows(he is full time). I do bookeeping,promo and run some shows also(I am part time and work to keep the bills paid during slow times). We are 1-1 compliant and even purchase special locking cases and software to prevent theft of our digital libraries. Our biggest problem is finding KJ's that are trainable to the GoodTime Karaoke guidelines. 1 out of 6 completes the training and is allowed to run shows alone. We wrote a training book and follow it to make every show a blast for the crowds. Anyone can use a computer or a CDG player....but most dont have the ability to hear adjustments that need to be made. A fair number have skulls so thick they dont realize the purpose of a stable rotation. And a few just end up being "too Happy"(drunk) during working shift. Some have no respect for the equiptment. We will not add a 4th system because we have too much trouble finding honest good KJ's and 1/2 the time when they are finally trained and running good they leave to start on there own:yosurrender:

 

[JoeChartreuse]

Eric, I have minimized the effect of multi-riggers and pirates because I am only speaking of my own experience- they have had virtually no effect on me. I realize this is a regional thing. Here in northern NJ, the density of both the population and venues, as well as my own name recognition has pretty much insulated me from the problem.

While I fully understand that there may be a HUGE effect in less densely populated areas, etc... I still don't think it negates my original post.

 

[ericlater]

Eric, I have minimized the effect of multi-riggers and pirates because I am only speaking of my own experience- they have had virtually no effect on me. I realize this is a regional thing. Here in northern NJ, the density of both the population and venues, as well as my own name recognition has pretty much insulated me from the problem.

While I fully understand that there may be a HUGE effect in less densely populated areas, etc... I still don't think it negates my original post.

Inherent in the point I am making is that ALL aspects of operating a karaoke company can differ from one place to another, including what the going rate is; what are the most popular mics; what songs are being sung; the size of the crowds, etc.

My main goal with my post is to simply share some (often overlooked) facts about multi-riggers and what it is like to compete with them. If you don't compete with any multi-riggers, my input is of no value to you.

Meanwhile, it is my estimation based upon two densely populated karaoke markets that I am very familiar with that multi-rigging IS more prevalent in densely populated areas where there are more shows to be had and less distances to travel.

In closing, Joe, I would hope with your rich and diverse experience you could look beyond your world and use your exceptional intellect and broad experience to advise those living in a karaoke world that differs from yours.

 

[So Cal Hugh]

The preloaded HD's caused a HUGH increase in substandard shows in our area

How did I get dragged into this!?!?

JK

The fact that there are actually services out there selling songs or memberships into pools of illegal songs makes it muddier. Many people get duped into thinking it's OK.

I never understood why SC didn't try to work with the industry to make things better. You know, that "more flies with honey than vinegar" thing.

The whole mess has caused me to say no to karaoke.

 

[Birdofsong]

Our company is a multi-rig we have 3 complete systems (no bare bones here)and have done as many as 16 shows per week. DH does ALOT of promotion, networking, book updating, disc buying, ripping and training along with runnings shows(he is full time). I do bookeeping,promo and run some shows also(I am part time and work to keep the bills paid during slow times). We are 1-1 compliant and even purchase special locking cases and software to prevent theft of our digital libraries. Our biggest problem is finding KJ's that are trainable to the GoodTime Karaoke guidelines. 1 out of 6 completes the training and is allowed to run shows alone. We wrote a training book and follow it to make every show a blast for the crowds. Anyone can use a computer or a CDG player....but most dont have the ability to hear adjustments that need to be made. A fair number have skulls so thick they dont realize the purpose of a stable rotation. And a few just end up being "too Happy"(drunk) during working shift. Some have no respect for the equiptment. We will not add a 4th system because we have too much trouble finding honest good KJ's and 1/2 the time when they are finally trained and running good they leave to start on there own:yosurrender:

And let's not forget the hosts that think THEY'RE the STARS instead of making sure that everyone else feels they are special.

Birdofsong

 

[KjAthena]

And let's not forget the hosts that think THEY'RE the STARS instead of making sure that everyone else feels they are special.

Birdofsong

So TRUE...we weed those out before training starts. I have been looking for another female KJ and have started training 4 none made it past the first 3 sessions. Some venues do better with a female host and we pay better than any other multi rigger in the area. I just need to find that good mix of personality, good ear, reliability and trainability....we would even play roadies if the girl was unable to lift. Goddess help me:yoBow:

 

[Guest]

You're overlooking an important factor; you are minimizing the effect(s) of the mulit-rigging pirates, particularly those who had established themselves before the current economic downtown. These outfits have a multitude of advantages over the single rig legal operator.

Phewey! That statement and it's supporting arguments are ignorant.

The biggest disadvatage to any mulit-op is the recurrig expense of labor - even if they pay peanuts under the table. It never goes away. It is the biggest advantage any single-op has over a multi-competitor.

Music by comparison is insignificant. The cost of labor is such a huge hurdle that it is impossible for a multi-op to be cheaper than you are and take the jobs away - unless you're not as good as you think you are, or you are overpriced for the service segment you are pursuing.

The latter is true for many KJs. They have enjoyed a period of relatively low competition that reinforced a false sense of their unique talents in a generally low paying segment of the market. Now, they are facing a cold reality about the true value of the market segement they are chasing.

 

[ericlater]

Phewey! That statement and it's supporting arguments are ignorant.

The biggest disadvatage to any mulit-op is the recurrig expense of labor - even if they pay peanuts under the table. It never goes away. It is the biggest advantage any single-op has over a multi-competitor.

Music by comparison is insignificant. The cost of labor is such a huge hurdle that it is impossible for a multi-op to be cheaper than you are and take the jobs away - unless you're not as good as you think you are, or you are overpriced for the service segment you are pursuing.

The latter is true for many KJs. They have enjoyed a period of relatively low competition that reinforced a false sense of their unique talents in a generally low paying segment of the market. Now, they are facing a cold reality about the true value of the market segement they are chasing.

I've already invited Thunder down to get the "lay of the land here". You might want to come down to Ft Lauderdale, also?

FACT:

Multirigger "A" has 12 gigs @ $125 per gig = $1500 (some are 3 hours) per week

Multirigger "A" pays his help $50 a gig = $ 600 per week

Without doing a show of his own, multirigger "A" has $900 week in his pocket.

HOWEVER, the guy DOES do a couple of the more successful shows himself for which he gets a bit more than $125. So, he probably makes a grand a week for himself, cash money, working partime on top of any other income, including private parties!

PS: While I will rarely work for the typical rate of $125 I guess you do since you get to keep it ALL

And while I don't know your local karaoke economy, it should now be clear to you what the natue or my local economy is. You do now understand that the multiriggers here can compete because of labor costs and not in spite of them. They benefit from the "economies of scale" that is actually facilitated by cheap labor! Labor costs in this market has never been a hurdle to overcome for the multiriggers. And while the labor costs have not changed in the last two years I bet its even easier today to find out-of-work people (maybe who are also on unemployment) getting an extra $100 a week in cash.

Pro: You're a bright guy, but do you ever reach conclusions working with well-researched, broadly gathered facts or do you always rely upon opinions and/or inadequate data?

PS: I have to work 6 nights a week to match the multi-riggers income and I have to remain constantly vigilant about managing and holding onto my 6 gigs -a time consuming job of its own!

 

[Guest]

My main goal with my post is to simply share some (often overlooked) facts about multi-riggers and what it is like to compete with them. If you don't compete with any multi-riggers, my input is of no value to you. [

What's your authority on multi-ops?
How many multi-ops have your worked for, managed, operated, or owned in the past 10 or 20 years?

I've been to Ft. Lauderdale, Orlando, and Miami.
The world you seem to be operating in is not anywhere in Florida.

Why are you competing for $125 Karaoke shows?
Are you not capable of anything better?

 

[JoeChartreuse]

In closing, Joe, I would hope with your rich and diverse experience you could look beyond your world and use your exceptional intellect and broad experience to advise those living in a karaoke world that differs from yours.

Doin' the best I can, Eric. That's why I try to use the "in my experience" disclaimer whenever possible.

I do know that the economic crisis, exposure to public use of PCs and MP3s, in NOT regional, but nationwide, and have affected all in the business.

 

[ericlater]

What's your authority on multi-ops?
How many multi-ops have your worked for, managed, operated, or owned in the past 10 or 20 years?

I've been to Ft. Lauderdale, Orlando, and Miami.
The world you seem to be operating in is not anywhere in Florida.
Why are you competing for $125 Karaoke shows?
Are you not capable of anything better?

Once again you must talk out your arse. Try this url: frankeoke.com. I know this operator and everyone else DOWN HERE, and I have lost many shows to such under-cutters

And if you want to make a wager on the veracity of my figures bring it on

And again, where do you come off ASSUMING how much I work for or what the going rate is for karaoke in any particular locale. I was just in Brunswick, GA. Going rate for disc based karaoke? $75 for four hours

You've demonstrated quite clearly when it comes to the financial aspects of competing in the karaoke marketplace these days that you are completely ignorant of what is REALLY going. Which is most fortunate for your competitors who must look upon you as being the ultimate loser