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Clars said:
I think part of the problem with plagiarism is that so much is done online, that kids don't have the experience of having to find information in books. To have to read the book or make copies to read at home, then have to read through things to find the relevant parts, then use that information to write your paper. You can google and find the relevant parts with no effort, although most of the time what you find online is not a suitable reference. I think that having to hunt for information to use helped formulate your ideas in your head and made the writing easier.

Although, plagiarizing a personal reflection paper is really sad. Thinking I should make my kid go to the library and research things when he gets older. I loved the library so much, I spent a lot of summers there reading books. (they had AC, we didn't) It was also my first job.
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:shesaid:

Back in the day :lol: you researched in the library and took notes to write your paper. Today most people research online which makes it easy to just copy and paste.
 
skincarekathy said:
http://www.empoweringparents.com/bl...are-you-doing-your-kids-schoolwork-for-them/#

The comments are especially interesting. My favorite is regarding the pinewood derby cars.

I advocate for our kids, and encourage them to advocate for themselves. I make my thoughts clear to their teachers and the administration, and encourage the kids to do the same. Are you trying to tell me it is somehow better for me to just do their work, rather than to take whatever actions I find reasonable to assure their work is graded on its own merits? That if I don't raise the public rallying cry at every school board meeting, my perspective is invalid?
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No, I'm saying I think you should try to dial down the sanctimonious "I'm shocked! :faint:" BS about people here who have said they do their kids projects. Your way isn't always the best way. :)

I am not saying that your perspective is invalid if you don't do those things, but you DID post that parents should get together blah blah blah (paraphrasing until I can go back and quote the post), so I'm asking why then didn't you do what you said other parents should do?
 
skincarekathy said:
I'm pretty sure they expect for them to start the project sooner than the night before it's due.

Perhaps if enough parents spoke up against unreasonable expectations, and there was a consensus that they are unreasonable, teachers would align their expectations. To the benefit of all the students.
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This :)

Or are you the type that sits around and waits for other parents to start the ball rolling to "benefit all the students"? SOMEONE has to go first.
 
**** IT I wasn't going to get involved in this thread... but copying **** you Googled and pretending you already knew it is considered plagiarism? Or is there another name for that?
 
You won't answer, because it is a legitimate question, but I'm the one asking it so history tells us you won't answer it. You'll give the

:shrug:

Meh

:eyeroll: and pretend it never happened even though I happen to be making a legitimate point between what you SAY parents should do and what YOU actually do
 
skincarekathy said:
Going back to college has made me even so much more in tune to this issue. We had constant issues with plagarized lab reports in my Bio class I just finished. This was from young, first-year students just out of high school. They literally had no tools to produce their own work, nor did they have a meaningful understanding of why what they turned in was plagarism. Several of them received remedial instruction in writing lab reports (to the detriment of the rest of us, that was time that could have been spent with us actually learning the course materials). A number of them were still expelled from class because of repeated acts of plagarism.

Am only 2 weeks into my current semester, I have Eng Comp. The teacher just sent a nasty email that over one half of the first required submissions (a PERSONAL REFLECTION paper!) were plagarized works, in some cases lifted in whole from the internet. That was the warning. Next occurrence for any of those students is an automatic fail of the semester.
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These students sound like they shouldn't have been admitted to college in the first place. College has become huge money making scam for universities and they take anyone and everyone who applies. If you get to college and you don't know what plagiarism is and you can't write your own personal reflection paper, you've got major issues--such major issues that if for some reason you do earn a degree you are no better off than when you came in and have student loan debt. This whole pushing people to attend college when people are not college material really sickens me.

These people that can't write personal reflection papers aren't the ones that had parents help with their project in school, but rather products of parents who don't really care about their kid's education...
 
PSA: I plagiarized the above post #364 :girl:
 
ennui said:
Why are you assuming any jigsaw needed to be used?

Models used in multi-million dollar development project planning are routinely constructed out of foam core board & balsa wood, both easily cut with a mat knife or scissors.

Paper mache sculptures usually have bent wire coat hangers or crumpled chicken wire in their inner cores.

My brother, sis, & I all made our own art/school projects, despite mom being a long-retired art teacher & dad being an engineer. They took us shopping for supplies, but left us each to design & create our own projects. They firmly believed it was in our best interests to learn these skills ourselves, and that included time management to get the projects done while also doing the rest of our homework & attending to other obligations.

BTW, teachers loves some of our creations so much, they kept 2 of them in their classrooms until they retired.
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No assumption, that's just what we tried this last time after the previous 2 times were difficult only using wire. There was no way this f'er was collapsing & needing to be rebuilt the night before it was due. I've done that enough. :lol:
 
Parents of high schoolers- have your kids learned how to write an actual paper? I ask because my kids' papers are APPALLING. I have papers of my own from 2nd, 3rd, 4th grade that are better written than some of the hs papers I have proofed. I am shocked at what qualifies as an "A" paper. It's as though the teachers count paragraphs & pages & grade based on amount of content, not quality of content. It happens often enough that I now make my kids give it to me a day early so they can "re-do" if I think it is substandard. (I probably shouldn't be proof-reading, huh? :lol: )

My friends DD was in an AP class at our hs. When my friend read her final paper, she realized that she repeated an *exact* paragraph twice in the paper. The teacher didn't even question it, 100 percent grade. WTF?

I think, at least in my experience, the classes at our hs are being taught to the lowest level of student, regardless of the level of class. It's no wonder they get to college & "suddenly" get D's. So I will continue to proof read because when they get to college I don't want them to think the drivel that passed as a "paper" in hs is going to cut it, because it isn't.
 
Our town's HS is NOT preparing the kids for writing papers.

My oldest took outisde tutoring and ACT prep etc...and when she got into college her downfall in many of her classes was the paper that needed to be written. (she would be carrying an A or high B all semester until there was a paper then she often tumbled to a D).

My middle child had to take a remedial "get ready for college" English class in college because her writing scores weren't high enough.

When she was angry and spoke with an academic advsor about it...she was told "most kids from Waukegan don't test high enough to go straight into college class"



And no, I don't think this correlates with anyone drawing borders etc...on DS' posters. Emm never let anyone touch her projects!!
 
DS4 is not even in kindergarten yet.....You guys are scaring me!
 
OMG I was thinking about this yesterday! Re: Cursive Writing....There was an article in the Wall Street Journal about this, and the one quote made me want to scream! Here it is:

"We're trying to be realistic about skills that kids are going to need," says Jill Camnitz, a longtime school board member in Greenville, N.C. "You can't do everything. Something's got to go."

:faint:

This is the whole article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323644904578272151551627948.html
 
skincarekathy said:
Last year Middle kid had the son of an engineer in his class. Guess who won?

:faint:
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Why would you assume that a son of an engineer could not have spent time with his dad or have gleaned some of his knowledge, he would also probably have access to more than the average child, but some kids are simply good at things because they have seen their parents do it and been involved with their parents for a long time.
 
I can say that the 2 years we spent homeschooling my son have paid off so well. It was a struggle at first to get him out of the "where's the study guide" mentality, but eventually he got it and it was a great pleasure when he spent 3 months on one chapter of US history because he found something that interested him and kept digging deeper and deeper into the subject.

I think that testing and study guides for everything have made all kids lazy, I also think that not being able to write anymore has caused them to not know how to have a paper "flow". Drafts are no longer done because the computer underlines stuff and proofreading is rarely done.

I also think it sucks to make non artistic kids be judged for being artistic/pretty in a non art class. In 3rd grade I remember finally doing my son's art project because he was flunking. In 3rd grade you should not flunk art if you are doing the projects. A C is fine, but F's are ridiculous.
 
I saw that on the news, Joy! They are spending more time on "keyboarding." Ummm...kids spend enough time on "keyboarding" outside of the classroom: Email, texting, FB, etc. My kids may not be geniuses, but my god they can type!

So cursive will die. So sad. DD8 has reminded me how EXCITED I was to *finally* get to write in cursive. She cannot wait! She told me the other day that they are working on some letters, so at least it hasn't hit our district yet.
 
mrs.melton08 said:
Why would you assume that a son of an engineer could not have spent time with his dad or have gleaned some of his knowledge, he would also probably have access to more than the average child, but some kids are simply good at things because they have seen their parents do it and been involved with their parents for a long time.
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This is true. My DD18 hasn't had any formal "pastry decorating" classes but she's been baking at home long enough to do it very well. Her final product is as good or better than mine, just because we've "trial & erred" together over the years.

Yes, I am currently paying for quarter 3 of Pastry School & the girl hasn't baked a thing yet. :lol:

That's what I was trying to say above...there are certainly SOME kids who can use a jig saw at 13. I probably could have, but I also grew up tinkering in my grandfather's basement workshop. My kids have not grown up that way. That's not to say they can't learn, but we're not going to lose a finger over it. I have a lovely pencil holder my DD made in woodshop. She is at the level of "drill press." :lol:
 
I guess I don't get the whole cursive thing. :hides: Haven't used it for much of anything in a LONG time. In 8th grade, high school, and college all homework had to be typed. I wrote my notes in print/cursive hybrid--so I guess it helps to know cursive to some extent.

In grade school DH was not allowed to write in cursive because it was so bad his teacher's couldn't read it. He's successful and wouldn't have been worse for not having learned it in school.
 
It's useful if for nothing else than writing a thank you note. That seems to have gone the way of the dinosaur, too.

The same argument could be made for spelling. With spell check & autocorrect, you really don't *need* to learn how to spell correctly. But you should.

We may not use cursive, but it would be weird not to know how to write in cursive. For me, anyway. I don't really write very often, either. It's just an odd thing to give up to me.
 
This thread is absolutely hilarious. I think it's hit nearly all of the hot button topics.

Just in case it missed breastfeeding - did you guys hear about the Toddlers & Tiaras mom who still breastfeeds hear nearly 4 year old daughter? They were both on Anderson Cooper Live this afternoon.

Go ahead - discuss. :giggles:
 
dragonfly said:
I saw that on the news, Joy! They are spending more time on "keyboarding." Ummm...kids spend enough time on "keyboarding" outside of the classroom: Email, texting, FB, etc. My kids may not be geniuses, but my god they can type!

So cursive will die. So sad. DD8 has reminded me how EXCITED I was to *finally* get to write in cursive. She cannot wait! She told me the other day that they are working on some letters, so at least it hasn't hit our district yet.
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I'd heard of this before, and as I was writing in my yet-to-be-born daughter's baby book last week, I wondered if she'd be able to read what I've written if she never learns cursive.
 
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