Officially Certified

[Big Joe]

It is conditional,

If you have the karaoke track on the original media sold by the manus CB and SC and have done an approved shift (95% approval for CB but can't recall what SC's approval rate is) and only use the digital file on your computer in one venue at a time regardless of how many copies you have in a digital format, then the answer would be No.

Then at least you are willing to be honest and say that. Thunder was not. That was of course the original question posed to him. Before his audit, he of course was not a pirate. Just those of us that disagreed with SC were accused of piracy, and it was called into question that we owned original discs.

Now that voluntary audits are being done, it's clear that the bar has been raised. Let me now get back to the original intent of this thread and join in congratulating the what, only 20 or so "legal" KJ's in the USA.

 

[c. staley]

It is conditional,

If you have the karaoke track on the original media sold by the manus CB and SC and have done an approved shift (95% approval for CB but can't recall what SC's approval rate is) and only use the digital file on your computer in one venue at a time regardless of how many copies you have in a digital format, then the answer would be No.

No, this is NOT "conditional." Nor does this have anything to do with discs, or disc ownership or anything other than "using a computer."

It's either "yes" or "no." You insist on putting it somewhere in between where it allows you to dance on whichever side you'd like at the time.

Joe is not proposing an essay question, nor is this a "trick question." Either he's a pirate or he's not for simply using a computer in his shows.

My answer to that is "no." Just as owning a gun doesn't make you a criminal or murderer or anything other than a gun owner.

I understand your conditions, but I don't agree with them. Manufacturers had the opportunity YEARS AGO to use a computer format that could be registered and LOCKED to a single computer and they ALL turned it down. It would have allowed computer use, unfettered with the simple exception that they be played back with 1 specific hosting program that was perfectly acceptable. Songs purchased would only run on the computer they were purchased for. But every single manufacturer turned down the idea -- and why was that?

Because the manufacturers thought they were in the business of "selling DISCS" instead of being in the business of "selling SONGS."

So what happened instead? SC tried the MediaClog route to "protect their discs" from being copied. They didn't realize it wasn't the discs that people wanted, it was the "songs on the disc" that people wanted. But they were still stuck on the entire concept of a "disc" and not "song." Which is truly ironic since they were selling "custom DISCS" for $50 each not realizing that the it wasn't the plastic disc -- it was the songs that people wanted.

What are they doing now? My goodness, they're selling "songs!" Yesiree, 6,000 of 'em... already to go for what? The very same COMPUTER and technology they couldn't stop and refused to adapt to just a few years before.

It's not an unheard of marketing and product placement error. If you think McDonald's sells "food" or that airlines sell "travel" your dead wrong. McDonalds sells "entertainment" and airlines sell "destinations." If they didn't, McDonalds wouldn't need a clown and no one would fly.. they'd take trains where they could enjoy "traveling" slow as it may be...

 

[Bazza]

no one would fly.. they'd take trains where they could enjoy "traveling" slow as it may be...

As an aside, I took the Acella from NY to Baltimore last week. Fast and easy. In fact it was faster door-to-door than a plane flight what with the absence of lines, the "TSA Massage", etc. I wish we had more high-speed trains.

 

[Guest]

no the answer(s) that we are getting are "I have 5 people a week coming in her offering to do karaoke for $50.00(or beer and tips) and they have twice the songs you do"On shows that we are currently working they will normally follow with "we know you are better but......and give us the chance to rebut....but on new business they are just trained to expect the lower pricing.

It is your responsibility to find a product and placement where the money is worth the effort. It's not about how well you fight - it's about choosing an arena where the effort actually pays off.

Stop trying to get blood from stones and move on to a new conception of how to make money doing karaoke. Why do you keep going back to compete in the same losing arena?

 

[possumdog]

A combination of what Chip and Pro says answers Pro's question. One must prove that a better and more expensive show will necessarily bring in more people than a cheap show catering to the people that were going to show up at that bar anyway because it is "their" bar. If you are established, you may have a track record to show. But it doesn't mean an owner will get the connection. Some will still want to try cheaper and if it doesn't work out, in their minds it isn't the host, it is that karaoke is no longer as popular, etc. Then they don't want to spend as much on it and the spiral begins.

You also can't totally eliminate supply and demand as a factor. Expecially when there is a big supply of people not as invested who don't do as good a show and dilute the draw, thus further giving karaoke the rep as not being worth paying for.

Song numbers we counter the same way Big Joe does. We may not have as many songs but we will have the ones they want to sing. But we have lost to a big song book because of owner perception--for a long time, advertising the song numbers has been THE one thing used to attract people so it just got accepted as the standard over time. Since the pirates in our area have suddenly cut their books down to about 2000 songs, we ARE getting in people trying our show because the other place doesn't have their songs anymore. So songs ARE a factor. But again, it is more due to what songs you have rather than the number. Even so, people condiditoned to having everything have been rude to us over not having what they want to sing that week. Plus they don't know why we don't just download it right then and there.

We are new and not as experienced but at the moment the only defense I see against anything is building relationships. Our show with the absentee owner isn't building as we would like (was going well until some brawls on night 3) yet we have a difficult time getting ahold of her to discuss strategy. The other show has an extremely involved owner and we can discuss target audience and strategy and advertising, etc. with her. When a competing KJ came in last week and told her everything we were doing wrong, she just politely told him to discuss it with us. I think the former owner might have decided to give him a try.

Same goes for audience. We do a lot of different things to be different but then others will just copy it. So the novel things are just the "attraction" and phase 2 has to be building the loyalties to keep the people. But alot of things are out of our control--brawls, bartendress behavior, drink prices, etc. It is a strange situation where you have one business trying to be a success within another business and there are so many variables. The economy has given a bit of weight to "cheap" right now.

The one thing that keeps getting overlooked is ethics. Sometimes people who's lack of ethics allows them to steal their music will have lapses in other areas. Another person may not want to get as down and dirty in the competition and will back away. Good triumphing over evil can be a fairytale. Sure, the mugger may eventually get caught and go to jail but the person who got mugged may still be stuck with the broken arm that never works the same again. Sure, the dirty politician or investor may eventually go to jail but it doesn't mean they don't beat out a lot of honest politicians or lose alot of people their money in the process. Pirates are dishonest people who do other dishonest things to gain advantage. People may say some of us are naive to think that we can do anything about a bad situation or say we aren't good enough because we got mugged. I think people who think that good will triumph without having to address the problems of the bad are just as niave.

 

[possumdog]

Oh--about always having cheaper competition in business. It is true for any business. There will always be introductory offers, sales, deals, bigger and more efficient buying power, more efficient operation thus cheaper prices, etc. But if a business continually sells it's product or service for less than it costs to provide it, they will eventually go under and cease to be competition. Not so with a pirate because they are stealing their supplies. So they can continue to operate and charge less than the service actually would cost were they doing it honestly.

How much better atmosphere would a bar have to have to keep people coming in if a 50 cent per drink place opened up next door? If they found out the place could charge that much because they were hijacking liquor trucks or making it in their bathtub, I'm betting they wouldn't just throw up their hands and say it isn't worth being in the bar business any more. They would probably try to do something about it.

 

[KJSandman]

My answer to that is "no." Just as owning a gun doesn't make you a criminal or murderer or anything other than a gun owner.

Unregistered gun? Fully automatic gun? License to carry? License to conceal? Owning a gun doesn't make you a criminal. Not meeting the requirements to own a gun does. The gun itself could be illegal.

There is an area of non-clarity here. It isn't a simple yes or no. Does hosting karaoke with a computer make you a pirate? Not on it's face, but it does lead one to consider the source of the computer files. The computer doesn't make you a pirate by default. The source of the files and compliance/non-compliance with the rights holder's terms determine your piratical status.

Your legally acquired, licensed gun does not make you a criminal, the use of the gun in a criminal manner does, as well as the legal status of the firearm in question.

Your legally acquired computer and the authorized tracks on it do not make you a pirate. It is the counterfeit files and unauthorized copying/distributing of tracks that would make someone a pirate.

 

[JoeChartreuse]

you are not an ASE certified mechanic, how do i know?...i have an ASE master cert. and guess what....never had to touch a car durring the whole process, and all the tests were open book. no real training, no experience form them, at all, but what a selling point. the paper means nothing, but given the choice at a price point wouldn't most people want an ASE certified mechanic under the hood? ASE techs never taught me anything about wrenching, but the guy in the next bay at the mom & pop shop with 40 years under the hood taught me more than i can remember. but i got more work from that useless certificate than my actual knowledge. why would this be any different?

This is an excellent post, because it opens up another point about what any certification means.

Example: I post ads on free sites. I was looking for new ones the other day and ran into a listing site run by something called the Karaoke Alliance, or some such, run by a guy named Eric. Supposedly another SC "partnered" site, but I didn't see anything from them on it, so not sure.

Anyway, they offer certifications as well. The would like all to be 1:1, but don't require it. However, they SAY they want hosts to go through a training program, and also to run a certain type of show, with equipment qualifications, etc...

Sounds OK, except that I then went to the NJ listings, on which there was ONE listing that showed as VENUE certified by then, and KJ certified by them. Great! I figured I would go see how a REAL certified host works....

...Um, no. It happens that the venue in question was one where I worked for a bit over a year. A little background:

I was their longest lasting host- a bit over a year before I quit. Amost all ( and I mean a lot- before and after) QUIT in a few months. I won't go into why, but only say that place could not hold a host. Not sour grapes, but an explaination for the following.

They finally gave up, and started putting on a house show, using different employees, as well as ( I believe) one of the owners' sons. They have simply plugged in a PC to the house system. I'm not making accusations about the library on that PC, but I feel it may be talking point.

The show is so bad that it no longer stands on it's own ( Wednesday nights), and they replace it with live music on that night if they can book a band cheaply enough.

In other words, karaoke is now just a "night filler", and would lose them money if a full host's fee was paid.

Strangely enough, this fully certified host's name ( again, the only one around) is listed as "o". Coincidentally, this is also the only PAID ad that I found.

In other words, it looks like money bought a "certification" without any certification process.

KIAA was/is the same. Rob's been a certified member in good standing, displays the logo, yet I don't believe anyone audited him- though he asked repeatedly- for months on end.

While I have absoloutely no doubt that Rob is legal, how do THEY know and certify that? Well, because Rob sent in a membership fee.

The only way ANY type of certification works is if the certifying agency is both VERY well known, the certification process is very well known, and carries a LOT of credibility.

Hate to break it to you, but though the vendors/mfrs. are well known to those of us in the trade, they are relatively unknown out in the laymans' world. Credibility?........

Add to that the lack of legality in regard to vendors/mfrs. pushing venues to do it THEIR way ( NJ HATES Restraint Of Trade), and it looks like we have to wait for a different agency.

 

[JoeChartreuse]

Correct spelling is not part of the TOS and could be considered an attack or bait.

I am asking nicely, please stop.:smilepill:

Thanks for that. I can actually spell quite well, but am the world's worst two finger typist- a LOT of errors...:laughpill:

 

[Mantis1]

For me, I'd rather have my name on "the list" than not. How simple is that ????

Sorry I asked already!

Lee

 

[possumdog]

I have a certificate to be a Registered Veterinary Technician. Went to school two years, had to intern for 9 months of that and had to pass a state test and pay a renewal fee every two years to get/keep it. Politics has gotten the standards continually changed--a 6 month govt. sponsored school will qualify you to take the test, taking biology in college and working so many hours at a vets will qualify you to take the test. The veterinarians have been extremely influential in what the certificate means or doesn't mean--a nurse gave me my rabies vaccinations without a doctor ever seeing me but I'm not considered qualified to give a dog one according to the veterinarians who fear losing control. Doesn't mean a whole lot. Some places will value it and pay you more. Others will feel that as long as the doctor is overseeing it, they can call in the kennel cleaner to monitor anesthesia.

So I would have to join Joe in a bit of sketicism as far as setting minium standards for host requirements and certifying them. For this situation, the return on the investment for the hassle would probably not pay out. And no one's health is at stake. But I see nothing wrong with someone wanting to get a certificate that shows the manufacturerers have approved their library and in educating venues to hire legal library hosts. I would call that marketing.

 

[JoeChartreuse]

Because the KJ dos not need a license to play a track purchased online.

Who told you that you did?

Me, for one. Downloads are not legal for use in a U.S. based show. We've been through this before. The legal responsibility for the original mfrs. disc lays on the manufacturers' shoulders. This is why they PREFER that PCs are used. Once copied onto a drive, they are now the HOST'S copies and responsibility.

Downloads, once on the drive of the KJs computer, are also COPIES. This leaves the host responsible for all licensing ( Recording, Fixing, Sync, Promotional, Commercial, Shift, etc...) here in the U.S..

Though completely for use in the UK, their jurisdiction doesn't reach out shores. U.S. based hosts are subject to U.S. laws.

A U.S. based show based on downloads ( even with paid receipts) is as illegal as any show based on stolen tracks.

Will anyone from a U.S. law enforcement agency care enough to prosecute criminally? Probably not- but the option is open, because it IS illegal.

Of course, if a mfr. offers downloads, then stops offering them, then demands a host have a disc for every track on the HD, it's a nice little double-dip, isn't it? :winkpill:

 

[JoeChartreuse]

It is conditional,

If you have the karaoke track on the original media sold by the manus CB and SC and have done an approved shift (95% approval for CB but can't recall what SC's approval rate is) and only use the digital file on your computer in one venue at a time regardless of how many copies you have in a digital format, then the answer would be No.

Well, kinda almost right. What the mfrs. want or don't want has nothing to do with the question of legality. They just SAY say won't sue or harrass you if you do what they want...

Now as for LEGALITY: The purchase of a disc allows you a single site license, so what Rumbolt says is true. You could have a lot of copies, but can only use one at a time at one site for each disc owned.

As for any PC use being illegal, 2 answers:

1) The manufacturer ( only one so far) uses the display of their logo on your screen from a computer generated source as an excuse to do as they please- no other investigation required before a letter goes out requesting an audit. They say they investigate now, but no evidence of that exists.

So, simply using a PC COULD cause you to be inconvenienced at the very least.


2) Media shifting- the answer to this one in regard to LEGALITY is....Who knows?

 

[JoeChartreuse]

For me, I'd rather have my name on "the list" than not. How simple is that ????

Sorry I asked already!

Lee

Not that it matters, but good enough for me, Lee! :biggrinpill:

 

[KjAthena]

Joe and Possemdog bot make good points...but I wouls still prefer being on the list as well...and my good will prevail over evil....is a statment of my belief in hope....18 months ago (before suitrs hit our area)I had no hope...To me hope is a benefit as it gives me a reason to continue on......I AM willing to do ALL I can to fight the battle against theives/pirates...because I NOW feel that the industry may survive once cleaned up:yespill:

 

[Big Joe]

Oh--about always having cheaper competition in business. It is true for any business. There will always be introductory offers, sales, deals, bigger and more efficient buying power, more efficient operation thus cheaper prices, etc. But if a business continually sells it's product or service for less than it costs to provide it, they will eventually go under and cease to be competition. Not so with a pirate because they are stealing their supplies. So they can continue to operate and charge less than the service actually would cost were they doing it honestly.

I know a couple of hosts that would do it for free as long as it meant getting out of the house and doing something they enjoy. I only do it as a side gig, that doesn't mean I'm willing to leave money that I could be earning in the owners pocket. Do you think a pirate really doesn't want every penny he can get also? If somebody's market only bears $50-$75 a night gigs, or venue owners will only hire people working for a tab and tips, then karaoke is not something I would choose to do in that market. Every penny I spend on music, equipment, supplies, even the gas that I put in my tank is deducted when I file my taxes.

How much better atmosphere would a bar have to have to keep people coming in if a 50 cent per drink place opened up next door? If they found out the place could charge that much because they were hijacking liquor trucks or making it in their bathtub, I'm betting they wouldn't just throw up their hands and say it isn't worth being in the bar business any more. They would probably try to do something about it.

If they're willing to steal, they can deal with the consequences that may result. That doesn't factor into my planning as a business owner. I can either make enough to make it worth my while or I can't. Bars around here have a wide range of prices, and they all have business. Not everyone goes to the cheap places to drink. If alcohol costs the bar owners the same, and 1 bar charges $1 a beer, and another charges $3 a beer, can I call the cops and say the second is stealing $2 from me every time I have a drink.

 

[Big Joe]

But I see nothing wrong with someone wanting to get a certificate that shows the manufacturerers have approved their library and in educating venues to hire legal library hosts. I would call that marketing.

I don't want to take any marketing tool away from anyone. It's the belief that this certificate should be required that has caused all the static on this thread.

 

[possumdog]

Bars around here have a wide range of prices, and they all have business. Not everyone goes to the cheap places to drink. If alcohol costs the bar owners the same, and 1 bar charges $1 a beer, and another charges $3 a beer, can I call the cops and say the second is stealing $2 from me every time I have a drink.

I'm not referring to what the customer pays. I am referring to a business using stolen property in order to charge less than sustainable prices. Many aren't as willing to give up their livlihood, hard work, etc. to theives as some so choose to try to do something about it.

 

[Big Joe]

There is an area of non-clarity here. It isn't a simple yes or no. Does hosting karaoke with a computer make you a pirate? Not on it's face, but it does lead one to consider the source of the computer files. The computer doesn't make you a pirate by default. The source of the files and compliance/non-compliance with the rights holder's terms determine your piratical status.


Your legally acquired computer and the authorized tracks on it do not make you a pirate. It is the counterfeit files and unauthorized copying/distributing of tracks that would make someone a pirate.

I just want to know the current definition of pirate here. If all it takes to be a prirate now is choosing to run my legally purchased discs on my cavs machine, I just may end up being that proud supporter of piracy that Kurt and Thunder always accused me of being.

 

[KJSandman]

Whose belief is it that "this certificate should be required." I do believe there was an assertion that in the future, bars who wish to book karaoke entertainment will be well advised to deal with KJ's who possess these certs.

I for one, don't believe that the "vetting process" should be left to the mfr's. I believe that the certs are one part of determining that you are dealing with a KJ who is legitimate. This leads to the voluntary audit process. The mfr's are the only entities in existence at this time that could logically be expected to carry out an audit. Again, this is only one aspect of the "vetting process".

I suppose that some would question the necessity of vetting KJ's to begin with. I would suggest that if the KJ's who have expressed their willingness to organize themselves and develop this process in such a way as to cede oversight authority to a trade organization, then WE will have built the credibility you're looking for.

Remember, the certs are a start. Everyone discussing this is participating in the development process.

FM (No Static At All)