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Questions about the Arizona Suits

Loneavenger:

No one here is saying that because they've (mfg's) sold "unauthorized" music to KJ's that it should be open season on them at all. However, they are not angels by any means they should not hold KJ's to a higher standard than they are willing to hold themselves.
 
ooh, ooh, i know... let's find out how the label owners who sued CB & SC
"investigated" SC & CB so we can bash them too!!! Who was it Sony ? Warner' Chappell??? I bet they had NO EVIDINCE WHAT SO EVER !!! ( maybe it was obvious according the current laws)

They just named every CB and SC and MM out there and lumped them all into one camp and bent them over and, and, and, didn't even offer to finance or help them maintain their businees. They just saw dollar signs.Those greedy EVIL Monsters!!!

Maybe we can bash them for trying to recover what it rightfully theirs and then they can repackage their product to CB & SC to help them thru their misery. Poor widdle victims!!!

God knows those evil empires never hurt ANY of the ppl they "represent".

Yeah,,,,, It'll be swell!
We will be heroes!!!!!
 
Mantis1 said:
ooh, ooh, i know... let's find out how the label owners who sued CB & SC
"investigated" SC & CB so we can bash them too!!! Who was it Sony ? Warner' Chappell??? I bet they had NO EVIDINCE WHAT SO EVER !!! ( maybe it was obvious according the current laws)

They just named every CB and SC and MM out there and lumped them all into one camp and bent them over and, and, and, didn't even offer to finance or help them maintain their businees. They just saw dollar signs.Those greedy EVIL Monsters!!!

Maybe we can bash them for trying to recover what it rightfully theirs and then they can repackage their product to CB & SC to help them thru their misery. Poor widdle victims!!!

God knows those evil empires never hurt ANY of the ppl they "represent".

Yeah,,,,, It'll be swell!
We will be heroes!!!!!
Click to expand...

You're kidding, right?
Because the EVIDENCE of SC and CB producing tracks without permission would be the discs themselves. Pretty hard to argue against that when you can easily pick them up in a store, take them home, and see for yourself what they are. And there would be NO reasonable explanation as to how they got there.
Just what are SC and CB supposed to say in such a case? "Umm sorry, Sony, our logo must have "accidentally" appeared with the songs. Oh, and we "accidentally" recorded the songs and had them "accidentally" put on discs. Then we "accidentally" put them on the trucks to the distributers who "accidentally" put them out for sale. We "accidentally" made a bunch of profit from it and "accidentally" put said profit in the bank. But we really didn't know about it."
Totally different than walking in a venue, seeing a logo on a screen and a computer being used, not bothering to ask to see discs, then filing suit on that "evidence", and then demanding settlement regardless if the KJ actually has the discs to back it up or not. Pretty shaky, if you ask me.
Not AT ALL the same kind of "investigation" techniques or evidence validity.
 
Been watching and reading all the post here and something has occured to me:

Does anyone here on the board actually have a list of the songs that are supposed to have been produced by SC and CB that they never had the license (or Permission) to produce. I would love to have a copy of that list. Better yet does anyone here have proof that the licenses were never paid by SC and CB or are we just going off rumor. There are a lot of claims but no proof and there are copies of lawsuits that are being passed around that only mean someone sued someone and the outcomes never fully disclosed but supposed. Was there anyone here that was actually in the courtroom or the conference rooms with the parties involved to know what the final outcome was.

All that being said, has everyone checked their CDG library to make sure you dont have any of the "nonlicensed" songs otherwise youldn't you be in possession of pirated music as some have implied or is it ok since you paid for it.
 
c. staley said:
Loneavenger:

No one here is saying that because they've (mfg's) sold "unauthorized" music to KJ's that it should be open season on them at all. However, they are not angels by any means they should not hold KJ's to a higher standard than they are willing to hold themselves.
Click to expand...

i am actually in agreement with you. Clinton should not be the one to tell me to keep it in my pants, but if no one else (police, FBI etc.) cares to go after those stealing the tracks, what other choice is there? it does very much sound like it is being said that they have lost the right to hunt the pirates because they stole in the past. so far there does not seem to be an alternate solution, not one that i can see at least and there hasn't been one on this board. so while i agree with you on this point (we agree????) what else do we do?
 
Hindsight being 20/20, isn't it funny that everyone had no problem using SC and CB products but the moment SC and CB start going after those that haven't paid for their products (not here to argue their tactics) but accuired their products in ways that circunavigate the normal supply chain resulting in lost revenue due the manu, all hell breaks loose and the manus are made out to be the bad guys and accused of stealing music themselves. Are you serious? Just stop using their products and move on.
 
rumbolt said:
Been watching and reading all the post here and something has occured to me:

Does anyone here on the board actually have a list of the songs that are supposed to have been produced by SC and CB that they never had the license (or Permission) to produce. I would love to have a copy of that list. Better yet does anyone here have proof that the licenses were never paid by SC and CB or are we just going off rumor. There are a lot of claims but no proof and there are copies of lawsuits that are being passed around that only mean someone sued someone and the outcomes never fully disclosed but supposed. Was there anyone here that was actually in the courtroom or the conference rooms with the parties involved to know what the final outcome was.

All that being said, has everyone checked their CDG library to make sure you dont have any of the "nonlicensed" songs otherwise youldn't you be in possession of pirated music as some have implied or is it ok since you paid for it.
Click to expand...

Yes. It is an exhibit and I got it through my Pacer account.
 
c. staley said:
Yes. It is an exhibit and I got it through my Pacer account.
Click to expand...

Would you care to share that list with the all of us on the board?
 
It's a public document that's eight cents a page. Will I post it here? Not a chance without permission from the moderators first. I'm quickly learning what the penalty is for sharing anything.
 
rumbolt said:
Hindsight being 20/20, isn't it funny that everyone had no problem using SC and CB products but the moment SC and CB start going after those that haven't paid for their products (not here to argue their tactics) but accuired their products in ways that circunavigate the normal supply chain resulting in lost revenue due the manu, all hell breaks loose and the manus are made out to be the bad guys and accused of stealing music themselves. Are you serious? Just stop using their products and move on.
Click to expand...
No argument at all about their tactics, but THAT is what caused people to get up in arms, when they went after LEGIT hosts without caring if they actually had discs or not, not the fact they were going after pirates. And some have stopped using their products. But then you throw in the fact that they want to start including manus and tracks for which they have no right to... well, there you go...
 
JoeChartreuse said:
....And what about #1- demanding licensing fees for tracks that SC has no licensing for ( illegally distributed in the U.S.?)
Click to expand...

I just found a bit more information on this. I happened to take a look at Eric's (Starz KJ) USKA site and noticed the following:

" Recent Publishing rulings make it illegal for UK Karaoke manufacturers to distribute discs in the US. "

If this is so, SC, whose discs are now manufactured in the UK by MediaPlas are being illegally distributed in the U.S. This would include the GEM series, for which some are actually paying licensing fees.

If anyone can supply more information ( Eric?) or a link I would be very grateful.

Keep in mind that Eric is not in "my camp".....
 
rumbolt said:
Been watching and reading all the post here and something has occured to me:

Does anyone here on the board actually have a list of the songs that are supposed to have been produced by SC and CB that they never had the license (or Permission) to produce. I would love to have a copy of that list. Better yet does anyone here have proof that the licenses were never paid by SC and CB or are we just going off rumor. There are a lot of claims but no proof and there are copies of lawsuits that are being passed around that only mean someone sued someone and the outcomes never fully disclosed but supposed. Was there anyone here that was actually in the courtroom or the conference rooms with the parties involved to know what the final outcome was.

All that being said, has everyone checked their CDG library to make sure you dont have any of the "nonlicensed" songs otherwise youldn't you be in possession of pirated music as some have implied or is it ok since you paid for it.
Click to expand...

Rum, I DO happen to have a list of at least the 180+ songs for which there is a permanent injunction against production against CB. If you PM me an e-mail address, I should be able to figure out how to send a PDF attachment. I'm fairly certain there are others, but in the case of this list, I know that they refused to answer my requests on at least 4 different occasions.

As for SC, the list is simple- they have no U.S. licensing for any tracks at this time, per Kurt- UK licensing only, which doesn't meet U.S. requirements, and is not valid in U.S. jurisdiction.
 
JoeChartreuse said:
I just found a bit more information on this. I happened to take a look at Eric's (Starz KJ) USKA site and noticed the following:

" Recent Publishing rulings make it illegal for UK Karaoke manufacturers to distribute discs in the US. "

If this is so, SC, whose discs are now manufactured in the UK by MediaPlas are being illegally distributed in the U.S. This would include the GEM series, for which some are actually paying licensing fees.

If anyone can supply more information ( Eric?) or a link I would be very grateful.

Keep in mind that Eric is not in "my camp".....
Click to expand...

I do not know all of the exact details.. There was a production deadline.. June or July of 2010 and the discs had to be imported into US prior to Jan 1, 2011. Sound Choice brought the discs in under that program just before it lapsed. They did it legally.
 
I just read a few pages of this and everyone can disagree, but until a case is litigated, everything here is gray area. Laws are open to interpretation and those laws have been interpreted in many different ways. Even experts in the IP field disagree constantly.. That is why cases are constantly in court. Everyone sides with the opinion that best represents their view and no matter what you think you can find an attorney to argue for your side as long as your checks clear.

The word Karaoke or the term CD+G or sync license do not appear in the US Copyright code or the Digital Millennium Act. Stellar v ABCO classified Karaoke under the same category as motion pictures because of it's video mixed with audio components. Most of the positions on these issues are going to require a case to go the distance in court. So let's all keep arguing until we are blue in the face.

No one can claim victory til they spend 10's of thousands of dollars on attorneys and appeals and have a final decision. And there are probably about 4 or 5 separate issues that would need to be decided.
 
starzkj said:
I do not know all of the exact details.. There was a production deadline.. June or July of 2010 and the discs had to be imported into US prior to Jan 1, 2011. Sound Choice brought the discs in under that program just before it lapsed. They did it legally.
Click to expand...

Well, they may have done so at that time, but they are STILL bringing in discs, and from what I understand, MediaPlas is still making discs for them. A friend bought a non-GEM disc ( SC2001- Bette Midler) in September, and had to wait while it was brought in. These, if the above is correct, would be illegal.

I have to say, if someone needed a book written on how to screw up a court case, SC has pretty much done everything one could imagine. Boggles the mind.... The only way a KJ should be able to lose a case is if he died going up the courthouse stairs, or hired Sean Penn's character from Fast Times At Ridgemont High as a lawyer...
 
Joe, you have every right to shop world-wide for your discs and use them here in the USA. (Such is life on the internet.) You simply have to declare them with customs. It matters not that you use them in a public venue.

The license to produce in the UK only menas those products cannot be imported for resale into the USA by a distrinutor or manufacturer. If SC allows that to happen - then the liability is theirs not the consumers and businesses who unwittingly end up with products. You have no agreement with the publishers and your use of a foreign made product in the USA breaches no contract to which you are a party and no applicable law, unless the product itself is restricted by the state department.

If you want foreign language karaoke - the obvious place to get it is overseas. It only matters whether you are a user or a reseller, and if you are a reseller - then thay are prohibited from exporting them to you.
 
Joe,

I have the other exhibit from other suit (against SC) of 255 songs that were "allegedly" produced with no license. The only filed "satisfaction of settlement" in any of these three cases was the one from Warner/Chappell against CB.... (none from the "big one.") And like the first, these are both available for 8 cents a page.
 
Proformance said:
Joe, you have every right to shop world-wide for your discs and use them here in the USA. (Such is life on the internet.) You simply have to declare them with customs. It matters not that you use them in a public venue.

The license to produce in the UK only menas those products cannot be imported for resale into the USA by a distrinutor or manufacturer. If SC allows that to happen - then the liability is theirs not the consumers and businesses who unwittingly end up with products. You have no agreement with the publishers and your use of a foreign made product in the USA breaches no contract to which you are a party and no applicable law, unless the product itself is restricted by the state department.

If you want foreign language karaoke - the obvious place to get it is overseas. It only matters whether you are a user or a reseller, and if you are a reseller - then thay are prohibited from exporting them to you.
Click to expand...


Pro, I don't neccesarily agree or disagree. This bit of information is completely new to me,very new in general, and requires more research. As it reads above, the only country of export affected would be the UK. It also says "illegal for UK Karaoke manufacturers to distribute discs in the US. "

The way I read it is that these discs can't be brought into the U.S. for resale OR distribution ( exchange of funds not relevant). Since MediaPlas is the actual mfr., this would seem to leave SC as the U.S. distributor/reseller, and liable.

You know, after thinking about this, and adding in the demands for licensing fees for unrightful product, and making the purchase of the GEM series part of their settlement, I'm beginning to think that SC may have more to worry about in the near future than possible civil litigation alone...
 
Is there a link for reading the actual law? Unless Zoom's website needs updating, they still list some distributors in the US. Maybe they just can't be the distrubor themselves? But then where would that leave Selectatrack? They aren't posting any warnings about no longer being able to sell Custom discs to the US.
 
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