What's new
By:
Filters

Shocked, Appalled and Embarrassed....

cookiemom said:
idk.....maybe dirty, stained, I just scaled a fence and crossed a desert to illegally enter your counrty "traveling" clothes..... i'm not sure
Click to expand...

That would probably qualify me as I'll be hiking out of the Grand Canyon in the next few days. I don't want to have to provide my ID as I make it to the top.




M
 
You're right..... I don't know exactly what they meant by "dress"...... but it's only one of many factors sited. Not being a law enforcement officer nor living in Arizona, I can only guess that it was included because illegals maybe? probably? don't come dressed in business suits. Wearing anything but doesn't mean illegality would be assumed.

Do you think Arizona didn't know what kind of bruhaha this would cause? Do you think the officers don't know how closely their actions would be scrutinized? Hasn't the legal staff gone all out to make the law specifically prohibit racial profiling? ANY laws/ALL laws carry the potential for racial profiling.

What do you think would happen if someone got arrested because they looked scruffy? dressed poorly? They CANNOT be that stupid. The person still had to be stopped for a "real" reason.
 
Mikerocosms said:
That would probably qualify me as I'll be hiking out of the Grand Canyon in the next few days. I don't want to have to provide my ID as I make it to the top.




M
Click to expand...

Well, if you plan on committing a crime while you're out there, I'd suggest having your ID handy.
 
cookiemom said:
ummmmmmmm, NO, Mike, I do NOT expect "my" government to do shocking, appalling and embarrassing things to its own citizens (no, not to anyone else either).
Click to expand...

You mean like asking them to "prove" their citizenship because they look like an illegal?


cookiemom said:
I would expect the government to protect me. The politicians are MY representatives. Do you think AZ feels like someone in Washington represents them today??? Why doesn't Washington get that this is a crisis situation? Why hasn't Obama gone there to see for himself and talk to the people living this every day?
Click to expand...


I imagine he's got his feet up while smoking a cigarette in the white house pool. JK

I think he has quite a bit on his table right now. As any president would have. I also think there are other priorities that stand before this one.



M
 
then no one will care
 
Johnny Law might since I might look like an illegal. ;) And I would because I wouldn't want to be embarrassed by my government.



M
 
cookiemom said:
You're right..... I don't know exactly what they meant by "dress"...... but it's only one of many factors sited. Not being a law enforcement officer nor living in Arizona, I can only guess that it was included because illegals maybe? probably? don't come dressed in business suits. Wearing anything but doesn't mean illegality would be assumed.

Do you think Arizona didn't know what kind of bruhaha this would cause? Do you think the officers don't know how closely their actions would be scrutinized? Hasn't the legal staff gone all out to make the law specifically prohibit racial profiling? ANY laws/ALL laws carry the potential for racial profiling.

What do you think would happen if someone got arrested because they looked scruffy? dressed poorly? They CANNOT be that stupid. The person still had to be stopped for a "real" reason.
Click to expand...

I had a big response typed out for this and lost it.

I think this law is going to create a really bad situation. I think that there are many situation where this could go very wrong. Federal law does not require me to carry proof of citizenship. AZ law should not supersede that.

I think the Federal government needs to step up, but nobody in Congress wants to risk the Hispanic vote and that is really sad. The whole situation is horrible.
 
Why do people completely ignore the part which states “law enforcement makes a lawful stop, detention or arrestâ€â€¦.. “The stop, detention or arrest must be based on reasonable suspicion or probably cause of a criminal or civil violation or the violation or a local ordinance.†?????

It’s not about stopping people because they’re dressed scruffy.

I bet if the government put up those same Dangerous Travel Area signs like the ones AZ just got, in our backyards, we wouldn’t be focusing on the word “dressâ€, but instead worrying about how to protect our families and asking the government to do its job. Yeah, I think the president should find the time for that, actually.
 
I could only say: police state America is not. And the Arizona law opens the Pandora box, and may set the precedent for something you would not want. Freedom is not something to take for granted.
 
cookiemom said:
Why do people completely ignore the part which states “law enforcement makes a lawful stop, detention or arrestâ€â€¦.. “The stop, detention or arrest must be based on reasonable suspicion or probably cause of a criminal or civil violation or the violation or a local ordinance.†?????

It’s not about stopping people because they’re dressed scruffy.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's ignored. I think what might happen is you give a cop more power (especially a power that has racial overtones) and you pretty much give him the right to check anyone. Cops know how to pull you over for any reason. Give them another reason and they will use it good or bad.



M
 
cookiemom said:
Why do people completely ignore the part which states “law enforcement makes a lawful stop, detention or arrestâ€â€¦.. “The stop, detention or arrest must be based on reasonable suspicion or probably cause of a criminal or civil violation or the violation or a local ordinance.†?????

It’s not about stopping people because they’re dressed scruffy.

I bet if the government put up those same Dangerous Travel Area signs like the ones AZ just got, in our backyards, we wouldn’t be focusing on the word “dressâ€, but instead worrying about how to protect our families and asking the government to do its job. Yeah, I think the president should find the time for that, actually.
Click to expand...

There are some scruffy looking guys playing loud Tejano music down the street and you think they are up to something so you call the cops. (Not you specifically Cookiemom, but we all know that there are busybodies in neighborhoods who would do this) Cops come out to check this out the noise violation, see how they are dressed and now they have reasonable suspicion. Start asking for ids at what is just a family barbecue and some people don't have ids. Maybe because they don't drive, maybe because they are 17, maybe because they left their wallet at home. They can be arrested for suspicion of being illegal. Is this really outside the realm of possibility?

I am not saying they will be stopped for their manner of dress, but if it is a consideration, I wonder what mode of dress adds to the suspicion of being illegal.

In an area that is rife with racial tension due to the violence, I see this getting out of control quickly.
 
You're assuming that some cops may take advantage of the law. I don't disagree with that..... just as some now take advantage of their power in many, many other situations.

Given how bad the situation is, given how committed the governor is, given how much is at stake, given at how great a detail they're going to to be specific about what is and what is not allowed, given how much exposure has been afforded to the POTENTIAL misuse, don't you think cops would go out of their way to go by the letter of the law, knowing what the consequences will be?

AND....... IF misuse occurs, it WILL be corrected.

I suspect that the people living in border states would like to know why the "potential" misuse of a law is so much more important that someone, some government entity, helping to keep their families safe. Just like crime victims having very few rights, so apparently do the people in border states.

there are many horrifying details and stats in this report.... you and I can not imagine what it's like to live there..... and it will only get worse without action.

http://securetheborder.org/images/pdf/AZMexicoBorderUpdate.pdf
 
The bottom line is that AZ is superseding Federal Law by requiring you to carry proof of citizenship. Regardless of what may or may not happen in practice.

I get that there is a problem but I have to wonder why this is in the beginning of that AZ POST thing you posted:

This statute is the core of the new legislation. It prohibits any official or agency of the state or its political subdivisions from limiting or restricting the enforcement of federal immigration laws to “less than the full extent permitted by federal law.” A.R.S. § 11-1051(A).

Who in AZ is limiting or restricting the enforcement of federal immigration law? Maybe they should start with that.
 
Clars said:
Federal law does not require me to carry proof of citizenship. AZ law should not supersede that.
Click to expand...

Federal law may not require you, an American citizen, to carry proof of citizenship, but it does require me, not an American citizen, to carry proof of my citizenship and my immigration status.

As Barb would say, it is what it is. I'm aware of the Federal law and aware that I must, when requested to do so, at any point in time, provide proof that I am here legally. Being asked to do so in Arizona or any other state would not freak me out. I don't have my papers on a daily basis, but when I travel I take them with me. It really shouldn't be a big deal.
 
canadia said:
Federal law may not require you, an American citizen, to carry proof of citizenship, but it does require me, not an American citizen, to carry proof of my citizenship and my immigration status.

As Barb would say, it is what it is. I'm aware of the Federal law and aware that I must, when requested to do so, at any point in time, provide proof that I am here legally. Being asked to do so in Arizona or any other state would not freak me out. I don't have my papers on a daily basis, but when I travel I take them with me. It really shouldn't be a big deal.
Click to expand...

Yes, you are required, but citizens are not. Requiring immigrants to carry their proof is not the issue. Requiring citizens to is.

You cannot tell by sight who is legal and who is not.
 
I haven't followed this issue closely. I would like to know what Governor Brewer signed is in effect already? Are there any statistics to show that this law is working (less illegal aliens or drug smugglers crossing the border)?
 
And if I am pulled over here and don't have my papers with me I'll be tossed in jail or have to pay a bond (or whatever) until I can provide my papers. If a citizen doesn't have ID on them then wouldn't the same happen? Yes, it is an inconvenience, but there has to be some way to fight illegal immigration. If I don't want it to happen I should carry my ID.

I just don't see the big deal with the AZ law.
 
It's not scheduled to go into effect until July 29th
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top