The Derailed Thread

[c. staley]

for someone just starting with karaoke....IMHO the Gem series gives you the best bang for your buck(and they finance)...followed by the foundations and bricks( a bit cheaper) or the CB 100 disc stackers and fill in from there:biggrinpill:

Of course what KJAthena forgot to tell you is with the Gem series, you get a rental with a contractual agreement that you will submit of YOUR accounting records on demand, hardware and software inspections and a promise not to sue you if you let them do the things above to make sure... but it's no guarantee, just a "covenant". But it's for your own good....

Really....

We wouldn't kid you here....

Honest....

As a matter of fact, it's such a good deal that KJAthena is "cleaning up" on the internet sales of those round things with the hole in 'em.... they call them CD's... (for the life of me I don't know why she just wouldn't rent another Gem Series if it's such a "good deal"...)

 

[Guest]

Status of Labels

Chip,

Do you have an opinion on anything that is not negative to Sound Choice?

I thought you said what Sound Choice does has no bearing on you or the market or the industry as a whole. Why does it consume so much of your mind?:laughpill:

There are two ways for Athena to get the obscure and discontinued disc, She can purchase them when she finds them or she can find someone selling a loaded hard drive! Which you do you suggest?:laughpill:

 

[KJSandman]

Status of Labels

Of course what software guy C. Staley forgot to tell you is that the GEM series is 6000 unduplicated songs. There is no (legal) way to get that many songs without duplication from any other manufacturer. The songs are produced at 328kbps and stand up to CDG (redbook audio) very well in real world sound environments like a karaoke show. You do not have to take the time to rip them to work with your pc.

The word "rental" when used in this context is disparaging and and incorrect. The contract that you will enter into is a license agreement. You can read the full text of that agreement before you enter into the contract. The GEM series is an attempt to thwart unauthorized duplication and distribution of SC's karaoke product. Each disc is serialized and accounted for in the contract. You can rest assured that your competition will have to pay to use this product and will not be acquiring the GEM series illegally. (note to Chip, have you found them on the web yet? 3 months of the 6 you predicted have passed.)

There are KJ/Hosts that have dumped SC product because they take issue with SC's methodology. They snipe at the GEM series because it is a great big bulls-eye for them to aim at.

Technically a "Covenant not to sue" is not a guarantee. I possess two such covenants from SC, one for the GEM series and one for all of the SC CD+G product that I own. I CAN be sued if I break the terms of the agreement(s), but as long as I abide by the terms, which is my intention, I'm not going to be joined in a lawsuit by this company.

Something else to consider as you enter into this new venture... SC is not the only mfr that is offering audits and certificates of compliance (1:1 - disc to pc-track). Chartbuster is also on-board with the vetting of legal kj's and offering similar terms to avoid being joined in a lawsuit. They don't have a "GEM" series yet, but they are now offering their product on SD media and again, it is already in MP3+G format, so no ripping required. Stellar Records (Pop Hits Monthly) offers everything from 2007 to the present in MP3+G format and their take on licensing is slightly different. You can look at their website but essentially (as Tony Walstra explained to me) their "Compliance Assistance Program" is a "blanket" licensing program that covers several of their labels including Top Hits Monthly (Panorama) among others. No vetting required, no audit.

Good luck on your new venture, focus on the facts instead of the hyperbole and the rhetoric and you'll find your level of success with less effort and less stress.

Have a great day.

 

[c. staley]

Status of Labels

Chip,
There are two ways for Athena to get the obscure and discontinued disc, She can purchase them when she finds them or she can find someone selling a loaded hard drive! Which you do you suggest?

I wouldn't know.... she's been named in suit from Sound Choice hasn't she?....yep.. and she owns all the discs?...yep..

Seems pretty simple to me, use their product (without renting the Gem series first) and get sued... For reference see: Jennifer Price's story about their attorney using "mob tactics"... This wasn't from me... it was her...

EVEN you... admitted you had a "pristine" and legal disc collection and it turned out the same tracks (for which you had no disc) kept showing up on your computer... An entire YEAR after you specifically claimed you had removed them...

So which is it Thunder?

Were you using those tracks illegally on your computer for a year?

 

[c. staley]

Status of Labels

Of course what software guy C. Staley forgot to tell you is that the GEM series is 6000 unduplicated songs. There is no (legal) way to get that many songs without duplication from any other manufacturer. The songs are produced at 328kbps and stand up to CDG (redbook audio) very well in real world sound environments like a karaoke show. You do not have to take the time to rip them to work with your pc.

You won't get the requirement to produce your business accounting records with any other manufacturer either.

The word "rental" when used in this context is disparaging and and incorrect. The contract that you will enter into is a license agreement. You can read the full text of that agreement before you enter into the contract. The GEM series is an attempt to thwart unauthorized duplication and distribution of SC's karaoke product. Each disc is serialized and accounted for in the contract. You can rest assured that your competition will have to pay to use this product and will not be acquiring the GEM series illegally.

Okay, then it's a "lease" which also comes with a "license." Kinda like my software... it comes with a license but I don't charge for FreeBook...

(note to Chip, have you found them on the web yet? 3 months of the 6 you predicted have passed.)

They have to rent/lease/license more than 10 or so... and I don't see them converting me to cheerleader by distributing FreeBook either....

There are KJ/Hosts that have dumped SC product because they take issue with SC's methodology. They snipe at the GEM series because it is a great big bulls-eye for them to aim at.

Naw, it's not that big of a bulls-eye. Just reading all the lawsuits is more fun actually.

Technically a "Covenant not to sue" is not a guarantee. I possess two such covenants from SC, one for the GEM series and one for all of the SC CD+G product that I own. I CAN be sued if I break the terms of the agreement(s), but as long as I abide by the terms, which is my intention, I'm not going to be joined in a lawsuit by this company.

It's a lollipop that means nothing because if you did something actionable, they could sue with or without a "covenant." It really is nothing and means nothing. So what's the point of this covenant? If you don't turn over your accounting records (which to me, is none of their business) then you have broken their agreement and they can sue you? Right now I don't have to give them my accounting records and they can NOT sue me for it....

What's the incentive again?

Something else to consider as you enter into this new venture... SC is not the only mfr that is offering audits and certificates of compliance (1:1 - disc to pc-track). Chartbuster is also on-board with the vetting of legal kj's and offering similar terms to avoid being joined in a lawsuit. They don't have a "GEM" series yet, but they are now offering their product on SD media and again, it is already in MP3+G format, so no ripping required. Stellar Records (Pop Hits Monthly) offers everything from 2007 to the present in MP3+G format and their take on licensing is slightly different. You can look at their website but essentially (as Tony Walstra explained to me) their "Compliance Assistance Program" is a "blanket" licensing program that covers several of their labels including Top Hits Monthly (Panorama) among others. No vetting required, no audit.

Funny....

 

[KJSandman]

Status of Labels

You won't get the requirement to produce your business accounting records with any other manufacturer either.

This seems to be your sticking point. This is the only manufacturer offering this unique product. Their terms are going to be unique as well, at least until another mfr implements a similar strategy and offers a similar product. In reality as opposed to fear-based conjecture land, if the terms of the contract are satisfied, I won't be required to produce accounting records. In fact, my accountant agrees with your concept that any court ordered foray into my business/accounting cannot be a fishing expedition. Naw, Chip, that requirement isn't a big deal to someone who is maintaining their integrity while doing business.

Okay, then it's a "lease" which also comes with a "license." Kinda like my software... it comes with a license but I don't charge for FreeBook...

Yeah, and an apple is kinda like an orange. I've read your FreeBook license agreement and it refers several times to the purchase of a license for free software. There are no temporal limitations in your EULA. Your granting of license occurs as long as the product "exists" under the EULA's terms. SC's license is limited to a specific term. Surely you understand the nature of the licenses that they hold in order to produce karaoke product. You know that there are quantity and time limits on those licenses. Again, there doesn't seem to be a problem here for someone who is aware of the facts and continues to abide by either your EULA or SC's License Agreement.

They have to rent/lease/license more than 10 or so... and I don't see them converting me to cheerleader by distributing FreeBook either....

I don't understand this statement. I'm not being sarcastic. I don't know how to reply because it doesn't make sense to me.

Naw, it's not that big of a bulls-eye. Just reading all the lawsuits is more fun actually.

Whatever trips your trigger. I can imagine you just squintin' and smilin' as you read lawsuit after lawsuit.

It's a lollipop that means nothing because if you did something actionable, they could sue with or without a "covenant." It really is nothing and means nothing. So what's the point of this covenant? If you don't turn over your accounting records (which to me, is none of their business) then you have broken their agreement and they can sue you? Right now I don't have to give them my accounting records and they can NOT sue me for it....

If I did something actionable? First off, why the hell would I do that? Chip, it's like a horror movie where you are supposed to suspend your beliefs in order to make the plot plausible. You continue to imply that under the license agreement, SC will order you to produce your records and that they will sue you after they lease you the GEM series. So, when I turn on the lights, so to speak, and look at this without fear and with the knowledge that the scary monsters aren't real your plot collapses. There has to be a certain level of integrity implicit when you are doing business. I agreed to your licensee terms when I installed FreeBook (there's a pdf of the results on my website). How do you know that I haven't made copies and leased, sold, distributed, or modified them? You don't. How do I know you won't take action against me to determine if I've violated the agreement? I don't. Please drop the assumption that myself or any other user of this product is going to "do something actionable".

What's the incentive again?

1: 6000 unduplicated, MP3+G format tracks from one of the best karaoke labels out there.
2: A new system of providing content to karaoke professionals that may result in long term benefit to the participants and detriment to illegal operators.

Funny....

There's a joke?

 

[c. staley]

Status of Labels

This seems to be your sticking point. This is the only manufacturer offering this unique product. Their terms are going to be unique as well, at least until another mfr implements a similar strategy and offers a similar product. In reality as opposed to fear-based conjecture land, if the terms of the contract are satisfied, I won't be required to produce accounting records. In fact, my accountant agrees with your concept that any court ordered foray into my business/accounting cannot be a fishing expedition. Naw, Chip, that requirement isn't a big deal to someone who is maintaining their integrity while doing business.

My problem is that there is NO justifiable reason for this requirement to be added into this "license" in the first place. How much you charge, to whom, how often you work, what your costs are or anything else NOT directly related to the "license and use" of their product is none of their business. There's no way you can possibly justify this kind of requirement. Your own accountant seems somewhat suspicious of the nature of such a request and has even (by your own notation) stated it cannot be a fishing expedition. However, you've ALREADY consented to open your books.... to refuse or limit it now could be construed as a violation and revocation of that license.

Yeah, and an apple is kinda like an orange. I've read your FreeBook license agreement and it refers several times to the purchase of a license for free software. There are no temporal limitations in your EULA. Your granting of license occurs as long as the product "exists" under the EULA's terms. SC's license is limited to a specific term. Surely you understand the nature of the licenses that they hold in order to produce karaoke product. You know that there are quantity and time limits on those licenses. Again, there doesn't seem to be a problem here for someone who is aware of the facts and continues to abide by either your EULA or SC's License Agreement.

Read it again... while it does say that the software is free, that doesn't make it "yours" to disassemble, reverse-engineer, etc.... Standard boilerplate stuff, minus the "cost factor" normally associated with commercially sold software... Sorry if it confused you...

Whatever trips your trigger. I can imagine you just squintin' and smilin' as you read lawsuit after lawsuit.

Not quite. But in some instances it is quite interesting... especially all the accusations and such that fly around in them.... from "willfully" to "was aware" to intimidating witnesses, not showing up for hearings, etc.... Quite a little cat 'n mouse game from time to time. What staggers the imagination is that some of these suits --Famous Music vs Slep Tone for example-- involve hundreds of unlicensed tracks that were sold for YEARS and although SC has been in this "business" for 30 years, this suit was only 4 years ago... You can't tell me they "didn't know better." It amazes me that so many of the cheerleaders here act like they walk on water.

If I did something actionable? First off, why the hell would I do that? Chip, it's like a horror movie where you are supposed to suspend your beliefs in order to make the plot plausible. You continue to imply that under the license agreement, SC will order you to produce your records and that they will sue you after they lease you the GEM series. So, when I turn on the lights, so to speak, and look at this without fear and with the knowledge that the scary monsters aren't real your plot collapses. There has to be a certain level of integrity implicit when you are doing business. I agreed to your licensee terms when I installed FreeBook (there's a pdf of the results on my website). How do you know that I haven't made copies and leased, sold, distributed, or modified them? You don't. How do I know you won't take action against me to determine if I've violated the agreement? I don't. Please drop the assumption that myself or any other user of this product is going to "do something actionable".

You missed the point --not by much, but still a miss-- the entire concept of a "covenant" is simply a ruse. You don't have to turn on the light to know there are no scary monsters, but don't confuse this "covenant not to sue" as some kind paper-printed magical "golden shield of protection." It isn't anything, nothing, caput, zip, zero, zilch. It's YOUR "protective plush-toy" because it's just like the light... it doesn't "do" anything for you but make you fee like you've gotten something in return. I can print up a certificate too that says I've "been voted best karaoke host in Thunder's market" but it won't mean anything to anyone... ever. Unless I find someone stupid enough to fall for it. And this is partially why I say that some KJ's are being "played like a fiddle,"... I can pat you on the back, give you a fancy certificate and a contract to sign too and if I can convince you it's good for you and your'e doing the right thing for the universe to acquire peace and harmony....

 

[c. staley]

(I must pat my own back for negotation skills(I'm a great jew"))

Excuse me?

 

[Birdofsong]

another great used cdg buy

well the binder of CDGS I found after calling on some small bose speakers... I love to chat and the lady remembered she had a "book of discs somewhere" ...I said yes sight unseen after she named some of the brands. (I must pat my own back for negotation skills(I'm a great jew"))Someone else got the speakers Darn it but I got the disks.

The system I posted pics of was a straight Craigs list buy...had been listed and had oriced dropped e times...wen looked listened and pulled out cash...down went the price again. Now he has enough to take russian wife to see the nutcracker and buy her a new dress:winkpill:

yardsale discs...just pure luck.

shoes are clean and concious clean:biggrinpill:

HOW DARE YOU. You have no idea how offensive that was. Why is it that bull**** stereotypes have to be pulled into a conversation about negotiating someone's price down!? Shame on you. I'll have you know I am Jewish (celebrating Chanukah as we speak, thank you very much). If you want to call yourself cheap, do it without bringing the entire Jewish race in, would you?

Go light yourself a candle.

 

[KJSandman]

another great used cdg buy

WHOAH THERE!
Your offense taken is unfounded. The stereotype YOU are referring to is not implied by KJAthena's statement. In fact, she equates being a good Jew to being a good negotiator. She didn't call herself cheap, YOU did.


"Go light yourself a candle."

How about 8?

Coming from someone of the Jewish faith, that is very appropriate at Chanukah.

 

[KjAthena]

another great used cdg buy

how dare I? Really? I am of Jewish decent (my mother is full blooded and my father 1/4 blood)and am allowed use these terms about myself I am of the jewish race my religion however is another matter....I hope you have a wonderful Chanukah celebration......I will light a candle for myself and one for you as well. IMHO you need to look inside for the true cause of your outrage.

 

[Birdofsong]

another great used cdg buy

how dare I? Really? I am of Jewish decent (my mother is full blooded and my father 1/4 blood)and am allowed use these terms about myself I am of the jewish race my religion however is another matter....I hope you have a wonderful Chanukah celebration......I will light a candle for myself and one for you as well. IMHO you need to look inside for the true cause of your outrage.

I don't care what you are...that doesn't give you carte blanche to insult the rest of us or perpetuate stereotypes.

And Sandman...I don't need your permission to be offended. You have no idea what it's like to walk in my shoes.

 

[c. staley]

another great used cdg buy

WHOAH THERE!
Your offense taken is unfounded. The stereotype YOU are referring to is not implied by KJAthena's statement. In fact, she equates being a good Jew to being a good negotiator. She didn't call herself cheap, YOU did.

"Go light yourself a candle."

How about 8?

Coming from someone of the Jewish faith, that is very appropriate at Chanukah.

Unless you are Jewish yourself, you know not of what you speak. Not a slam on you, but you truly are not aware (and I don't think even KJAthena was aware) of what a really nasty comment that was. I doubt anyone would make that kind of comment standing in the middle of a synagogue and expect to remain unscathed. To those that are Jewish, being so has absolutely nothing to do with being a bad or good "negotiator."

PM me your mailing address... I'll mail you a kipah for Christmas....

 

[Diafel]

another great used cdg buy

I'm not Jewish, but even I can see how totally offensive and un-politically correct the statement was. Nothing personal on Athena. I would say this if it had been Bird, Chip or even if Joe C had said it. It simply was not appropriate.

 

[Guest]

another great used cdg buy

Dated a JAP for a while years ago, until I found out she was married to Marine corp Lieutenant! That kind of turned me off!

Must be some really tight shoes!:laughpill:

Athena,

If your mother is Jewish then everyone in your family is also, makes no difference what your actual religious practices are!

 

[Guest]

another great used cdg buy

Unless you are Jewish yourself, you know not of what you speak. Not a slam on you, but you truly are not aware (and I don't think even KJAthena was aware) of what a really nasty comment that was. I doubt anyone would make that kind of comment standing in the middle of a synagogue and expect to remain unscathed. To those that are Jewish, being so has absolutely nothing to do with being a bad or good "negotiator."

PM me your mailing address... I'll mail you a kipah for Christmas....

 

[KjAthena]

another great used cdg buy

I have never been accused of being the most PC I am also not a bigot or a hypocrite .(I would most likley say the same statment in the middle of a synagogue chatting after a service) ....I am a study in contradictions...my statement was directed toward myself....I can call myself anything I wish that is not a curse word on the boards...I have even called myself a B*TCH....now if I called someone else a name I could see people getting there panties in a bunch.....I have no control over how thin skinned anyone else is or what the emotional triggers for every member may be...please use the ignore feature if you find me to be cruel or insensitive.


Bright Blessings
Athena

 

[KJSandman]

another great used cdg buy

I didn't suggest that anyone needed my permission to be offended. I said your offense was unfounded. I can point out that referring to oneself as a "good Jew" in that reference could be construed differently and without offense. That is ONE alternative. I certainly didn't perpetuate a stereotype with MY comment.

Get a grip... neither you nor Mr. Birdofsong have any clue of my ethnic or religious background so you have absolutely NO standing to tell me what I can voice as my own opinion.

“These three are the marks of a Jew - a tender heart, self-respect, and charity”

Stereotypes only hold power over those who believe in them. Your offense is a waste of your precious energy. These are the High Holidays. Peace be with you sister. Though your shoes do not fit me, I may have shared your path from time to time.

 

[c. staley]

This should get interesting.:rolleyespill::worriedpill:

This sounds like a trap.

 

[DJCC]

In an effort to keep threads on track, any post in any thread that has gone off-topic from the OP will be moved to this thread so that you may discuss at will. Please keep in mind that you must keep within the TOS and the Zero-Tolerance Policy.


This should be interesing.:laughpill::worriedpill: