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The Derailed Thread

Directly from SBI President on Karaoke Downloads

dougpke said:
You can use Tricerasoft's Elite conversion tool (included with SE4) to rip your CDG's to a bin file. Generally speaking, a bin file is basically a container, containing the audio data and cdg sub-code data for that track. You can then use MTU's Songverter to convert the bin file into the wav+g format. Presto! CDG quality right off your computer!


Thanks! I have Tricerasoft's CDG Ripper 2, and I like it because it allows multiple instances to be run; thus I can rip 3 discs at a time (1 internal & 2 externals). It will rip to .bin. All I need is Songverter. Looks like I'll be re-ripping soon!
 
Directly from SBI President on Karaoke Downloads

Proformance said:
I can live without chat. Can you prove my claim about this company and this representative to be false?

Is this going to get personal? (emphasis mine) Ad hominem arguments help no one.

You need to take a step back and let go of your hatred. It does you no credit.

[edit] One more thing - you've asked someone to prove a negative. That's a logical fallacy.
 
Directly from SBI President on Karaoke Downloads

Chartbusterette said:
I'd agree, but perhaps you should consider what might constitute "damage." Remember that there are consumer protection considerations as well. Further, bad rips can result in poor quality reproductions, and displays of trademark that accompany bad rips damages the holder's reputation.

How ridiculous... A scratched disc then can "damage you?"... A patron who requests a key dropped to -4 sounds just as crappy and obviously "damages" you as well.... Personally, I've always hated any manufacturer's "imposed advertising" by slapping a logo on the screen as often as possible.... stealing as much free advertising as you think you have some right to get.

Perhaps I should go back to playing CB and SC discs on an old AS-222 player that has a crappy CD+G decoder built in.... that's guaranteed to make anyone's product look like crap... with NO alteration of any kind.
 
Directly from SBI President on Karaoke Downloads

Chartbusterette said:
I'd disagree, but I'd also have to concede that, as a manufacturer, and with your position as the postulated tradesman, our respective positions are not necessarily neutral. In the absence of hard marketing data to support either position, let's agree to disagree.

As a manufacturer let's also take into account that you are not a privilaged participant in the workings of any particular venue or KJ, therefore those damages which you claim you cannot calculate - may in fact be within the demonstrable ability of the defendent to accurately represent in their own defense.

also consider that the trademark appears at the beginning, at the end, and in newer cases during the instrumental breaks of the karaoke lyric wipe display. This constant exposure to the brand reinforces the impression, similar to the now-ubiquitous "bugs" that you see on your television screen that keep you informed of what channel you're watching. If that impression is negative due to poor sound quality, the damage is multiplied as a result of the heightened exposure.

First, you are incorrect about when and how your logo might appear. In my personal use, your logos make no such appearance because the start and end points are never displayed on our monitors, and instrumental screens are replaced by our own in house slides and advertising. We are professional DJs - trained to mix and overlay audio/video contents on the fly during playback. We do not waste valuable screen space providing free advertising for CB.

Second, this presumption about "quality" is grossly over-stepping your rights. Users can not be held legally laible for the quality of how your product is presented in it's use - there is no such grounds. You can not sue a KJ or DJ for damages because he prefers to present or use a distorted version of your audio and/or video product. A interpreted performance is not a derivative work and not legally actionable as infrigement of the mark if no such mark has been publicy attached.

"Distortions" are exactly what as DJs we are hired to do. We mix, edit, flange, sample, scratch, echoe, distort, and other wise transform pre-recorded works into new live performances. Your karaoke product does not escape this reality of the club world - it is by definition an "accompaniment track" designed to be used as a building block to someone else's vocal or musical presentation. There is no legal requirement that your interpretation of the music or video be preserved in the performance.

If you want to prosecute for piracy then piracy is what you must demonstrate - not some ancillary instance of the audio not being up to snuff. If you want to prosecute for trademark then infringement of the mark is what you must demonstrate - not a complaint that KJs aren't in sync with your marketing dept.

In addition, the Chartbuster brand reaches beyond the karaoke show market. We sell tracks to television shows, movies, game publishers, webs sites, and many more outlets. I would put forth the argument that infringing performances that damage the brand could hurt Chartbuster in ways that extend beyond the impressions of that night's generic karaoke crowd. Who knows who was in the audience on a particular night who might hold the purse strings on expenditures for, say, the next rhythm game, or who does does the track acquisition for a movie studio? (This also relates directly to my point below about actual damages.)

Again, you must demostrate an actual infringement of the mark itself - not simply a dissaproval of the performance quality.

In short, I'm unconvinced that "substantial public exposure" comes into play here. How many CB songs were played, on how many nights, for how many customers, for how many months or years? Multiply each of those instances by three and I don't think the damages phase is going to be hugely affected, and is far from a moot point.

You just said you can't calculate this yet, here you are providing a formula for doing so?

But media-shifting alone isn't an infringing activity (per Betamax). Judges have indeed reduced jury awards, citing a lack of relevance to actual damages (RIAA v. Thomas-Rassert), but I'm not arguing against that point at all.

Yet, the "use of a computer" has been and still remains the evidentiary basis in these law suits. So while you may not want to argue that point - the DJ community can see very clearly that you are attacking that point quite specifically.

I'm saying that proving actual damages in a case such as the one stipulated are darned near impossible. Collecting actual damages requires proving actual damages.

A judge may decide that the minimum statutory damages apply in any particular case, or they may decide that the maximum applies, or anywhere in between. But remember, if a highly-motivated plaintiff can't provide a provable number relating to actual damages, how much less can a judge? And in that light, is a judge more likely to recognize their own inability to relate such a number to statutory damages, or less so? In both the spirit and the letter of the law, statutory damages aren't a "technical lottery ticket" as you cite above, they are a protection to the plaintiff in cases where actual damages are impossible to prove or calculate. Such difficulty applies equally to the court as to the plaintiff.

You have completely ignored the defendent who is equally capable of entering evidence relevent to any claim for damages. As much as you claim you can not "prove" actual damages - the defendent on the other hand, may be perfectly prepared to "disprove" them.
 
Directly from SBI President on Karaoke Downloads

"Perhaps I should go back to playing CB and SC discs on an old AS-222 player that has a crappy CD+G decoder built in.... that's guaranteed to make anyone's product look like crap... with NO alteration of any kind."

At least you'd get some use out of all those CD+G's in your garage. You bought them, knowing full well that they display the mfr's trademark on every single track. Seems you've got energy to waste on hating.

Nah, no vendetta or grudge here... no elephant in the room either.:rolleyespill:
 
Directly from SBI President on Karaoke Downloads

KJSandman said:
"Perhaps I should go back to playing CB and SC discs on an old AS-222 player that has a crappy CD+G decoder built in.... that's guaranteed to make anyone's product look like crap... with NO alteration of any kind."

At least you'd get some use out of all those CD+G's in your garage. You bought them, knowing full well that they display the mfr's trademark on every single track. Seems you've got energy to waste on hating.

Nah, no vendetta or grudge here... no elephant in the room either.

Wow.... It's amazing how my disapproval is quickly labeled as "hating" by you...
 
Directly from SBI President on Karaoke Downloads

Paradigm Karaoke said:
this is the only part that hit me funny. couldnt the same also be said for someone using all Behringer, Audio 2000, or some Radio Shack equipment? no matter what track you use, that gear will make it all sound like dog s**t.
i am not disputing your point as much as trying to expound on it a bit.

Disagree on the Audio 2000.......
 
Directly from SBI President on Karaoke Downloads

c. staley said:
Wow.... It's amazing how my disapproval is quickly labeled as "hating" by you...

No, hating is labeled as hating by YOU! "Personally, I've always hated..."

You're amazed? I believe I've seriously over-estimated your comprehension of your own posts.
 
Directly from SBI President on Karaoke Downloads

KJSandman said:
No, hating is labeled as hating by YOU! "Personally, I've always hated..."

You're amazed? I believe I've seriously over-estimated your comprehension of your own posts.

You have a dramatic propensity for overstatement... "hating an ACTION" (like plopping a logo on the screen every 10 seconds) is much different than hating "the ENTITY" that put it there...

But it's just not as much fun if you take it for what it meant and not what you'd LIKE it to mean.
 
Directly from SBI President on Karaoke Downloads

ooops. delete me please.
 
Directly from SBI President on Karaoke Downloads

Singyoassoff said:
1-1 media shifting of a cdg disc is (arguably) legal. Granted -- grey area here... but I believe at this point it has yet to been proven illegal.

I believe playing an (arguably) legally shifted 1-1 file in a commercial environment is no different than playing the disc. (As long as the original disc is archived and NOT in use. Again, we're talking 1-1 here.)

Seriously, so many of you are like a dog with a rag in it's mouth. You just can't let go of a controversy that doesn't even exist.

Media shifting is already codified in the current copyright laws thanks to recent responses from the Congressional Committe on Copyright and prior precedent including a recent RIAA defeat in Federal Court owing to interpretation of a 27 year old U.S. Supreme Court Decision.

For the LAST TIME people: there is no gray area only persons with gray intentions.

People with gray intentions land in court. For the most part, the courts simply cleanse their eyes and show them the true color of the area they are in.

Media shifting is not piracy. Piracy is not media shifting.
If you do not know the difference then expect no ground to be given by those who do.

The term "professional" is always reserved for those with at least a basic and current understanding of laws pertaining to their own vocation. This site is a testament to the ever increasing number of those who do not fit that criteria.
 
Directly from SBI President on Karaoke Downloads

JoeChartreuse said:
Actually, I don't care about the legality, and it was never my point.

For someone who doesn't care, you certainly take every opportunity to loudly proclaim that SC is illegally marketing and selling their own products in the US.

JoeChartreuse said:
I don't care about delivery method. I was speaking of altered product, not it's container.

Exactly my point. The product is still the same, only the container has changed.

JoeChartreuse said:
Soda manufacturers EXPECT the product to outgas with consumer use. However, when it does, I am not using it for commercial purposes, or passing it off as unopened product.

If you order a Coca-Cola at one of my bars they pour it into a glass, where it is changed from the initial product...and charge for it. Are they selling a NEW, altered product of their own creation commercially? No, of course not. The product is still the same. By your definition a "Jack & Coke" could be bottled, sold & marketed as "Joe's Drink" since both products have been radically altered from the original. Try it and see what happens!

JoeChartreuse said:
So, how's life treatin' ya these days? We had some nice weather here in NJ for a change. How is it in your area?

65 on Friday and it snowed last night. This weather has been crazy!

c. staley said:
Personally, I've always hated any manufacturer's "imposed advertising" by slapping a logo on the screen as often as possible.... stealing as much free advertising as you think you have some right to get.

Yes!! I loathe how Pepsi puts their logo all over the can. This blatant stealing of advertising is disgusting. It takes away from my enjoyment of the beverage, all this imposed advertising they thing they have the right to steal. Who do they think they are anyway? They should be paying ME to drink their advertising laden cola!
 
Directly from SBI President on Karaoke Downloads

Proformance said:
The term "professional" is always reserved for those with at least a basic and current understanding of laws pertaining to their own vocation. This site is a testament to the ever increasing number of those who do not fit that criteria.

Yeah, I know. I'm just an amateur who has made my living as a KJ for the last 20 years or so. I'm sorry to have clogged the site with my amateurish blathering that you were forced to read. I hope one day to become a "professional".

The term "pompous" is always reserved for those who... ah nevermind. Have a nice day.
 
Directly from SBI President on Karaoke Downloads

Singyoassoff said:
Yeah, I know. I'm just an amateur who has made my living as a KJ for the last 20 years or so. I'm sorry to have clogged the site with my amateurish blathering that you were forced to read. I hope one day to become a "professional".

The term "pompous" is always reserved for those who... ah nevermind. Have a nice day.

And you are an intern at the public defender's office applyin for the bar for what reason? To moonlight your karaoke job?
 
Directly from SBI President on Karaoke Downloads

c. staley said:
And you are an intern at the public defender's office applyin for the bar for what reason? To moonlight your karaoke job?

Bingo!
 
Directly from SBI President on Karaoke Downloads

Paradigm Karaoke said:
thats a tough one, and is the question at hand. i am not an IP attorney nor do i have one on retainer to consult with so i am not sure which one of those applies. there are arguments on both sides that i bought a musical recording, and that i bought a disc. that is why i have not used this particular argument, because i do not know the answer. my question to you however still is...n this one, are you saying that the manus have to prove that i did not have the right to use the tracks on my drive, but not having discs or receipts is not a valid method? However, "product wear or destruction does not revoke my right which remains in it's non-transferrable archive." i could say all my discs were destroyed in the fire in my garage, and they can do nothing about it? there must be some way to protect their rights, but it seems every method has been shown to be "bad" (i can not find the word i am looking for here).
"If the manufacturers can not prove that the track in question is pirated - they do not have legal standing on the Trademark issue." what way COULD they prove it if audits, not having the original media, or proof of paying for the tracks are not acceptable as proof of piracy?

Is this directed to me or Proformance?


Paradigm Karaoke said:
you have as of yet to answer a single question i have asked, and even the ones just asking you to expound on your thought a bit more so i can understand your stance better. every question is just spun back around and shot back at me with another question but even in this instance, i did not attack you at all, i asked if i was correct in my understanding of your post and for you to expound on what methods YOU feel WOULD be acceptable as i do not see any other options and i thought with your statements in the post, you may know one i did not think of.

If this is directed to me, then please send your questions via PM, I'm not avoiding anything other than itchy trigger fingers.
 
Directly from SBI President on Karaoke Downloads

JoeChartreuse said:
The statement above is false on many levels. First, and most importantly, my post about marketing and selling in the U.S. was in parentheses and ended in a question mark.

Uh huh.

JoeChartreuse said:
SC actually has the nerve to demand a licensing fee for product that they have no right to produce or sell here, and on top of that, some KJ's actually think that this is OK.

Your words, not mine. Sure doesn't sound like a "what if" question to me.

JoeChartreuse said:
in the hopes of selling their overstocked GEM sets

For a guy who claims to be a neutral player watching from the fringe, you sure make a lot of biased claims. How exactly do you know what GEM sales are or what their current stock situation is?
Or is this another of your "questions" and not a statement of fact? :rolleyespill:
 
Directly from SBI President on Karaoke Downloads

Paradigm Karaoke said:
this is the only part that hit me funny. couldnt the same also be said for someone using all Behringer, Audio 2000, or some Radio Shack equipment? no matter what track you use, that gear will make it all sound like dog s**t.
i am not disputing your point as much as trying to expound on it a bit.

Actually, the sound quality being damaging to the mark was just an example for the sake of argument. I really don't think that the limitations of poor sound reproduction equipment could result in an actionable offense. It could result in a pretty lousy show, though.
 
Directly from SBI President on Karaoke Downloads

JoeChartreuse said:
I deleted the rest of your post, because the statement above negated it, and helps validate what I said, because this is exactly what is happening. Both you and SC, right?

Well, you deleted the key part "If that's true (and I don't think it is)...". I'm actually asserting just the opposite, to support my argument. I don't mind when you excise quotes for brevity, or because you don't wish to address those parts of my post, but please don't edit out parts that change the entire meaning.

To restate my premise: those who stand firmly against the service of lawsuits based only on observation of laptop/hard drive operations, and who also espouse the theory that transcoding creates a new work, are supporting two mutually exclusive theories.
 
Directly from SBI President on Karaoke Downloads

Proformance said:
As a manufacturer let's also take into account that you are not a privilaged participant in the workings of any particular venue or KJ, therefore those damages which you claim you cannot calculate - may in fact be within the demonstrable ability of the defendent to accurately represent in their own defense.

I sincerely doubt it. Go back and read that list of other markets we are in. Can a venue demonstrate that no individuals of the stripe mentioned were present on those nights? It would be very difficult to prove that they weren't, that's for sure.

Proformance said:
First, you are incorrect about when and how your logo might appear. In my personal use, your logos make no such appearance because the start and end points are never displayed on our monitors, and instrumental screens are replaced by our own in house slides and advertising. We are professional DJs - trained to mix and overlay audio/video contents on the fly during playback. We do not waste valuable screen space providing free advertising for CB.

So, you freely admit of your own will to removing the trade dress and trademarks from Chartbuster Karaoke product? You freely admit to adding your own trade dress in its place? You freely admit to attaching un-approved advertisements to our intellectual property?

I do believe you have run afoul of ABKCO, sir. Remember that ruling said that the rights pertaining to an audio-visual work should be granted on an individual basis, and were not compulsory. Please send to me a copy of the license where we granted you the right to do this.

Proformance said:
Second, this presumption about "quality" is grossly over-stepping your rights.

It was only an off-the-cuff example of stipulated damage. Stop fixating on it.


Proformance said:
There is no legal requirement that your interpretation of the music or video be preserved in the performance.

Oh, but there's quite a large gap between "interpreting" and wholesale stripping of the trademarks and trade dress. You are in violation, by your own admission.

Proformance said:
, you must demostrate an actual infringement of the mark itself - not simply a dissaproval of the performance quality.

I think your own admission above of stripping out the duly attached trademarks and trade dress and replacing them with your own devices is quite sufficient, thank you very much.

Proformance said:
You just said you can't calculate this yet, here you are providing a formula for doing so?

Not at all, I'm demonstrating how difficult such a calculation would be. It seems as if you are deliberately misinterpreting my statements.

Proformance said:
You have completely ignored the defendent who is equally capable of entering evidence relevent to any claim for damages. As much as you claim you can not "prove" actual damages - the defendent on the other hand, may be perfectly prepared to "disprove" them.

Actually, the legal team is more than eager to take this all the way through the courts. Thus far we haven't seen any precedent. Perhaps you'll be the one to step forward, yes?
 
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