Fighting Back

[DJ Dr. Drax]

Sound Choice,

The ADJA, the AKJA is ready & willing to help you to get your message out to the industry in any way that we can. We would love to have an article on your position for defending your IP rights for our magazine. Please contact me anytime at the ADJA national offices.

 

[Guest]

MusicMeister


Well said!
But several of us have been saying the same thing for sometime now, I don't think one more saying it is going to make any difference to those that are of the opposing opinion!

 

[jclaydon]

Sorry to hijack the thread again, but the mention of lasers just made me think of the funniest 'oops'. I forget the number, but if you look at the video of 'blue bayou" on one of the pioneer lasers, there is a woman walking hand in hand with a man down some dock. If you look closely the guy has a huge ****. My kj friend always used to announce "and this video is a special dedication for all the ladies - watch the end"

-James

 

[MusicMeister]

MusicMeister


Well said!
But several of us have been saying the same thing for sometime now, I don't think one more saying it is going to make any difference to those that are of the opposing opinion!

Yea... but this topic has been beat to death over and over and I felt the need to say SOMETHING. The problem is that most people can't tell you the difference between mechanical licensing, public performance licensing, terms of use, and copyright. Most can't explain what laws allow you to do what - let alone why it doesn't apply if you're a commercial entity. It take into account that most DJ's are violating the letter of the law (by space shifting). People want to think they understand the law when in fact they don't have a clue. They don't even have a clue that they don't have a clue!

But hey... what do I know. So far, I'm the only person that I know of who was able to actually get written permission to use tracks purchased online from a legal source within my DJ business (to be completely honest, I think they did it so I would stop bugging them! They originally told me to contact each and every label - and when I contacted a half dozen or so, including the president of one label out of Mississippi who succinctly said, "Look, buy your tracks legally, pay ASCAP/BMI/SESAC licensing and we're happy" - and I talked with the retailer about it - they finally caved and sent me an email.). Although I did hear of iTunes announcing or sending something a while back which might have changed that.... (Mine didn't come from iTunes BTW).


In the end... get legal or stay at home. The last thing I want is what they did with the Home Recording Act of 1992 to apply to other areas. BTW, that was the FIRST law that assumed that you were going to break the law and taxed you based on that. It assumes that illegal copies will be made of DAT tapes and has mechanisms in place to limit the number of generations of copies that can be made. It taxes each and every DAT unit that's sold as well as every single DAT tape under the assumption that it will be used for illegal purposes. If they did this with CD-R's, DVD-R's and similar media we'd likely be in the same position as Canada in this regard. If I understand Canada copyright law, they basically said that any media you might affix the illegal tracks to is taxed which makes it legal for 'personal' use. It's why peer to peer lawsuits failed in that country. But again, I'm not anywhere near as up to date on Canadian laws so I could be completely mistaken...


While I might not condone the practices that SC is using... largely the filing suit in cases where the people are obviously innocent (like the video on the SCsucks site). I applaud them for doing SOMETHING. I'd much rather they addressed the problem and we suffered through it than to put up with this issue as an ongoing blight on the karaoke industry.

 

[jokerswild]

Sorry to hijack the thread again, but the mention of lasers just made me think of the funniest 'oops'. I forget the number, but if you look at the video of 'blue bayou" on one of the pioneer lasers, there is a woman walking hand in hand with a man down some dock. If you look closely the guy has a huge ****. My kj friend always used to announce "and this video is a special dedication for all the ladies - watch the end"

-James

There's another song on those same discs that features a female doing the back stroke in a pool that you get a little exposed nipple action..... I forget the song now.... it was so long ago that I had seen it. (that particular song not nipple action)

 

[Guest]

There were many very risque videos on the laser disc but none even come close to the complete nudity of the playboy lasers!

I was doing a show once at a bar and would slip in one of the PB disc from time to time on certain guys (and some girls by request {because some girls do}) the reactions the first time I did this to them usually messed up their singing! Yes I would cut the audience screen and just let it play to the stage!

 

[JoeChartreuse]

I'm liking this thread again!

My TU's don't like cdgrip


Lee

Lee, the TUs have LOT'S of quirks:

1) If you try to back them up using "Safe" mode ( slow 1-2X burn, with error correction if needed) they don't burn. They only burn at 8x or higher..:sqerr:


2) If you use databases to create songbooks, virually every disc has incorrect track listings

I've also often wondered why Top Tunes discs are "TU" series.....

OK, sorry for helping a hijack. We now return to our regularly scheduled kvetching...:sqmad::sqlaugh::sqwink:

 

[JoeChartreuse]

Then comes this clown to save us from the SAVIORS...:

While the way the guy presents it on the site is a bit much, the "savior" bit - after one reads the posts AND Kurt's own statements regarding SC's goals on the matter- doesn't seem to make any sense at all..

To those who speak of reporting pirates: I agree- but to WHOM??

So far there is no piracy specific fully authorized government agency. I have tried reporting to the FBI twice. They're too busy.

Manufacturers have their own agenda, having nothing to do with actually fighting piracy- and it's not their job anyway- no fault of theirs.

I think that leaves "Ghostbusters"?

 

[Mantis1]

Joker, wasn't that backstroke on a Top Tunes ( or tip-top) LD? the song was Bonnie raitt" I Can't make you love me" I have that LD! Yellow bikini ! The "slip" happens right after the little girl points to the pool.

Steve, yep, full frontal on the PB's but some of those others are VERY suggestive though , like yogurt dripping on a busom.

Meister, I've heard many times it IS legal to format shift IF you get WRITTEN permission from EVERY owner of EVERY track. That does not mean Sound Choice. They don't own the track they use it by permission. You said you got some permissions? But before that you said there was no way. Just wanted to clarify for every one here.

Actually getting permissions for even 100 songs would prob be impossible unless pre negotiated by someone like SC on the KJ's behalf

James, Yep I got that LD too.

Hey Cato Caitlin is on DK LD right? Anybody remember that ?

Joe, I think I got my TU's to work at 1x. I will have to try 8x or more. There are a FEW tunes I have on TU that I like better than other mfr's. Like " man of constant sorrow" and couple other tunes I have by them (tu) i don't have by others.

"who you gonna call?"..............

 

[MusicMeister]

Meister, I've heard many times it IS legal to format shift IF you get WRITTEN permission from EVERY owner of EVERY track. That does not mean Sound Choice. They don't own the track they use it by permission. You said you got some permissions? But before that you said there was no way. Just wanted to clarify for every one here.

Actually getting permissions for even 100 songs would prob be impossible unless pre negotiated by someone like SC on the KJ's behalf

Ok... to clarify.

The terms of use for iTunes and other online sources prohibit your use of the tracks for commercial use without written permission. It is THIS permission that I was able to get in writing to bypass the Terms of Use for an online service.

Again, most people don't understand the difference between copyright, terms of use, etc.

As for space shifting, it requires multiple things - and the hardest to get is a master use license to affix a performance to a new medium. That requires a process that is so incredible time intensive and cost intensive that it's not even remotely feasible.

A quick run down.

For any given song, there are initially 2 copyrights in effect - one for the music and one for the lyrics.

When you publicly perform a piece of music who's author has died less than 75 years ago (current US copyright law requires allows the copyrights to stand for 75 years after an author's death) you are required to pay for a performance license which is typically acquired through ASCAP, BMI, or SESAC. In the case of religious works, it's typically found through CCLI.

If you record a song someone else has written with the intend of distributing it - you are required to pay the mechanical licensing purchased through the Harry Fox Agency. This is a statutory rate (set by Congress) and at a minimum it will set you back about $50 per track because of the minimums. A 10 song track will cost you $500 - or about $1 per disc (IIRC, it's a 500 copy minimum you pay for - even if it's only 10 discs you're making).


Technically, if a karaoke track didn't have any lyrics then they could use mechanical licensing. But to affix the lyrics to the track requires what is called a synchronization license. This is only available through the copyright owner directly - and not only are they not typically cheap- what often is permitted is sometimes denied later after the company has already put the recordings have happened and major costs incurred (this is the case of the SC8125 disc for example).

Now comes the sticky part...

If you purchase a CD you have multiple things. You have a song, lyrics, and a performance by an artist. Even if the SONG AND LYRICS are in the public domain, the performance of that song is NOT IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN. This has come to bite people who use classical recordings for 'on hold' music thinking that the works are in the public domain, and while they might be, the PERFORMANCE IS NOT. ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC have hit people up for licenses when they've used modern performances of public domain works.

You are required to get a master use license to affix that song to a new media. The Rio decision allows for PERSONAL use to be space shifted (or as I prefer, format-shifted/media-shifted) but specifically DENIES space shifting for commercial purposes.


Keep in mind what I have posted here only begins to scratch the surface of intellectual property and copyright law. Most lawyers can't tell the difference unless they work in this field and most DJ's don't even begin to have a clue.


FYI - Violation of a terms of use isn't criminal. It's civil. Copyright/trademark infringement 'could' be criminal though Sound Choice (if I understand this correctly) is filing civil suits.

Again, I am NOT a lawyer, I'm just better read up on this stuff than most. And I CANNOT EXPRESS THIS ENOUGH!!!! IF YOU ARE BEING SUED, GET A LAWYER THAT SPECIALIZES IN THIS STUFF!!!!! THE AVERAGE LAWYER IS CLUELESS!!!! MY POST IS NOT MEANT TO BE LEGAL ADVICE!!!

 

[jokerswild]

Joker, wasn't that backstroke on a Top Tunes ( or tip-top) LD? the song was Bonnie raitt" I Can't make you love me" I have that LD! Yellow bikini ! The "slip" happens right after the little girl points to the pool.

.............

That's the one... I don't remeber the color of the bikini... it was the 90's and I was usually drunk as hell.. but there is a nice nip shot!

 

[DJ Dr. Drax]

Who to call?

Joe,

You could call KAPPA, or you could call the mfgs of the tracks. I for one hope that SC enforces their IP completely to those that stealing it. SPace shifting becomes one of proving damages. Hard to do, harder to prove.

However, stealing is EASY to prove, easy to proceed.

I hope that they tip on their keister every single KJ pirate out there.

 

[Mantis1]

I knew all that but hopefully some one will be enlightened. And just in case someone is learning: mechanical license is often called compulsory license.

And HUGE problem is ppl not knowing, or caring, about the diff between home use and commercial. BIG difference!

Lee

 

[Sound Choice]

MusicMeister - all your points are well stated - and well researched, apparently. If all posters did as good a job of due diligence, we could have some really good dialogues here.

However, I would like to expound a bit on the statement that several posters have made here: "SC States they're not out to stop piracy."

For us to think that Sound Choice could "stop piracy" would be far reaching since the mega-corporations such as Microsoft and all the major record labels have not been able to do it. To set "stopping piracy" as a primary goal would guarantee our failure. So, why would we set a goal that was doomed to fail? That said, it IS certainly a goal of ours to REDUCE PIRACY! I certainly hope that in this context everyone who might want to twist my words has a clearer understanding of why “stopping piracy” is not our primary goal.

Let me state here a series of objectives, goals and marketing intentions that we do have. I think that most of you (even the "pirates") will find something to say "thanks, Sound Choice" about in our “bucket list”.

1) Our primary goal is to begin producing music and releasing new products again PROFITABLY. (We know that even the pirates lament us not releasing new songs). We hope to again build a sustainable business model on SELLING karaoke music.
2) There are enough Karaoke Hosts who are using our products that if we only captured 20% of potential market share we could release music profitably. Unfortunately, piracy is so rampant, we estimate that only about 5% of the uses of our music are paid for. The rest is stolen.
3) We must stem the tide of piracy and thus have been FORCED to resort to lawsuits to do it. We will continue to use this tactic as long as it is necessary. I have heard a lot of negative feedback to our approach, but those who have been griping have not offered any alternative. We welcome CONSTRUCTIVE and useful feedback, and we welcome your reports and any evidence of pirates in your area.
4) We recognize that hard drive based systems are inherently easier to use and understand the appeal of the same. Unfortunately, so many of you forget that we are forced to “partner” with music publishers and thus we are not completely in control of what can be done. We are planning on releasing sets of songs in MP3+G format that are legally created by us. These sets will have a significant discount over the single disc price per song. With the imminent launch of this new product line we will be eliminating many of the complaints and objections and barriers that the pirates are using to justify their activities. We have also re-released over 100 discs that have been out of print for a long time, making it easier for those who might have “cheated a little (or even a lot)” to get their systems legal with Sound Choice products. So, while carrying the hammer of lawsuits on one hand, we have a ready made solution in the other. The "smart" guys will "buy before they fry", while others will still need the "nudge" of a law suit to get the message that things are changing in this industry. As a matter of fact, visit our site now and take advantage of our 25% discount for our 25th Anniversary. For those who want to buy larger quantities of discs (over 30), we have even larger discounts. But hurry, the sale ends March 21, 2010.
5) While we can't FORCE any pirates out of business, if they chose to operate with Sound Choice music, we can increase their cost of doing business, either through lawsuits or when they buy our music of their own volition. Directly we can't do anything about their other pirated songs from other producers. It will be up to the KIAA and/or other Karaoke producers to do something about the rest of the pirated music that populates their hard drives.
6) However, it is our intention to continue to work with everyone in the industry (other karaoke producers, KJs, and venues) either directly or via the KIAA, to work to reduce piracy, "level the playing field", and build profitability back into all levels of the value chain. Yes, we are sharing our “techniques” with other producers and the KIAA and anticipate that other actions will be taken in the near future. Even if you chose to operate without Sound Choice, be prepared to have to pay for whatever your other favorite brand is. But, given our quality level and our affordability, we don’t know why most hosts wouldn’t want to continue to use Sound Choice music that was legally paid for. During our investigations, Sound Choice is often played over 60% and as high as 90% of the time. Why alienate your singers?
7) We do plan on releasing new songs on a regular basis, thereby building CURRENT demand for our product, but the pace at which we do this depends on how fast we can "convince" enough KJs to start buying our products, as opposed to stealing our products. Secondarily, we can only release products as fast as licenses can be obtained from the publishers. Quite frankly, I don't know how some of our competitors are able to license so quickly! Or, maybe they aren’t, but that’s an “unlevel playing field” we have to deal with.
8) As we rebuild our profitability, we would really like to get back into supporting various contests and individual hosts, so that you can improve your shows and/or the number of PAYING singers, so they are supporting your venues. Why shouldn’t the next “American Idol” come from among the ranks of our singers? And be proud to say that they are a “karaoke regular”?

There, that’s what we are really all about. No surprises, no guessing on what we are trying to do or where we hope to go. Those who have such a strident anti-Sound Choice bias might only ingest the parts where I discuss our profitability or our lawsuits, and use my words out of context for their biased rants. But the rest of you, who really have an interest in the entire industry, should recognize that Sound Choice is dedicated to the health of your business as well, and not just our own bottom line.

Kurt J. Slep
CEO, Sound Choice

 

[Guest]

Kurt,

Even if your only reason and purpose was YOUR OWN BOTTOM LINE the affect would be the same for the KJs who operate legitimately, an increase in profitablity!

But regardless of why you are doing it, I want to thank you not only for doing it but for this post as well!

 

[MusicMeister]

Kurt,

Thanks for posting the information. If you were closer I'd apply for a job.

If this works out and actually impacts the industry, I might even consider getting back into karaoke!

 

[spam4us]

The "smart" guys will "buy before they fry", while others will still need the "nudge" of a law suit to get the message that things are changing in this industry. As a matter of fact, visit our site now and take advantage of our 25% discount for our 25th Anniversary. For those who want to buy larger quantities of discs (over 30), we have even larger discounts. But hurry, the sale ends March 21, 2010.

Kurt J. Slep
CEO, Sound Choice

ok So based on this statement, what is the price to buy your entire catalogue? I've purchased other manu's entire catalogues in the past directly from them. I don't see anything on your site for the entire collection.

Thanks

 

[jokerswild]

ok So based on this statement, what is the price to buy your entire catalogue? I've purchased other manu's entire catalogues in the past directly from them. I don't see anything on your site for the entire collection.

Thanks

You have to contact them directly for the additional savings for bulk buys but the 25% savings is online now.....

I have that price break down and the more you buy the better it gets.... and combined with the 25% savings it gets down to ruffly $9.00 per disc.

Ask for a catalogue and you can tick off the discs you want and there's an order form in it too.

That's what I'll be doing.... not because I need to get legal, I already am, but to add girth to my already existing collection.

 

[jclaydon]

yup, if I had the extra cash i would be investing in their entire catalog. As it stands, I'll just have to save up and wait for the mp3+g discs to arrive. I hope it is soon.

-James

 

[Wall Of Sound]

I Don't Think You Can Get The "ENTIRE" SC Catalog

Just to note, SC's "ENTIRE" catalog is not available. Only discs that they currently have in print & in stock is what is available to the best of my knowlege. You are not going to get SC8125 Eagles for example....

But Kurt mentioned the re-release of 100 former SC discs that were OOP.

It would be nice if someday SC8100 thru SC8999 was available for purchace, but I don't see that happening due to that SC would have to get all the rights again to produce them.