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Officially Certified
- Thread starter Audio One
- Start date
I am still trying to figure out what change by the kjs you are refering to? Don't tell me I need to sell my business and promote a union with the bar so they will see a increase in revenue to improve their bottom line.
What you don't seem to understand is that the bars aren't interested in improving your bottom line... ever. You seem to think that by presenting a certificate or a contract, or results of an audit, or a covenant or even a gold star that the clubs are going to be obligated to simply hand you more money? Who needs to get a grip?
You don't know what most of us do to promote our businesses unless you are following each one of around. You really have no clue and you do nothing more than insult anyone that does not agree with your bla bla bla.
This is not about "promoting your business" because if you're already connected with a full schedule at the rates you want (not in a price-war with pirates) then you'd have very little promotion left to do wouldn't you?
Prob get banned for this but I am now at my wit end with all the self proclaimed experts that slam anyone trying to clean up our industry (if only by 10%).
Not to be confused with the "self-proclaimed professionals" who's only professional requirement is to buy equipment and print a songbook.
Pro or anyone else reading this,
You need to get a grip. Oh BTW, there isn't anything I have ever said on this forum that I would not say to anyones face so I'd welcome a face to face meeting to continue our discussions.
Let me check my calendar.....
What you don't seem to understand is that the bars aren't interested in improving your bottom line... ever. You seem to think that by presenting a certificate or a contract, or results of an audit, or a covenant or even a gold star that the clubs are going to be obligated to simply hand you more money? Who needs to get a grip?
I said their bottom line not mine. I would never expect any venue to just hire my company on just the fact I have a certified library.
This is not about "promoting your business" because if you're already connected with a full schedule at the rates you want (not in a price-war with pirates) then you'd have very little promotion left to do wouldn't you?
This is about having a certified library
Not to be confused with the "self-proclaimed professionals" who's only professional requirement is to buy equipment and print a songbook.
That is true in almost any business that doesn't require anything more than a business licence or permit by local or federal gov agencies.
Buy a lawnmower and a gas can and charge to cut grass and you are a lawncare company. Are they not professional? May not do a good job but a low quality professional. I do consider myself a professional in the entertainment industry. Self-proclaimed and by my peers. Is there a problem with being "self-proclaimed"?
[quoteSo?[/quote]
Back atcha...
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wouldn't it show to the venue owners that the Manus who are on the path to sue those stealing their material and the venues that provide said theves a place to ply their trade, a safety that they will not be sued? if i have gone through the audit, the manus start hitting the venues with the safe harbor or equivalent saying "be right or we will be back" (same as they do for pool tables or other equivalent entertainment) the certificates (especially multiple ones from several manus) say "i am safe and the manus will not bother you.
doesnt say i can KJ woth a s**t, but they wont get hassled.
i can pour a shot, but without a certificate, i can not serve at a bar. i COULD....but the venue wold be at risk for fines. to me this looks similar.
doesnt say i can KJ woth a s**t, but they wont get hassled.
i can pour a shot, but without a certificate, i can not serve at a bar. i COULD....but the venue wold be at risk for fines. to me this looks similar.
Big Joe manages to point out that "vetting process" seems to be insubstantial because there are other questions relating to vetting a KJ that would require established standards as well. He does this with respect and civility, two qualities that you seem to be utterly lacking.
And I am still without an answer as to how a voluntary audit equals vetting to you?
. .....Thunder's assertion that these certificates would be required to work is erroneous, Such a condition would violate U.S. ant-trust law, and it is also illegal to use the threat of litigation to manipulate commerce.
.
This is correct. If it were not vendor issued for their own interests,, but some sort of legal licensing agency it would be a different story.
I don't about you guys but the bar owners I know aren't going to bother looking for certificates. Heck most of the ones I know are to cheap to run background checks on their employees. Perhaps other parts of the country have a better class of owners?
As for this certification thing, finally something Chip and I agree on. Not to be a 'hater' or anti-CB/SC/BS but this wouldn't be worth the paper it's printed on to me. It's not the bar owners job to police/enforce your copyrights. Will a couple of bar owners fall for this certification program hook, line, and sinker? Yes sir however the vast majority will just ignore it.
Well yeah, that's the other part of it. Owners ( one of which I was) want you to come in, make them money, and get out. Next....
oh my too sick to deal with this now.....bright blessings to all:winkpill:
STILL? Well feel better, darn it! Geez....
wouldn't it show to the venue owners that the Manus who are on the path to sue those stealing their material and the venues that provide said theves a place to ply their trade, a safety that they will not be sued? if i have gone through the audit, the manus start hitting the venues with the safe harbor or equivalent saying "be right or we will be back" (same as they do for pool tables or other equivalent entertainment) the certificates (especially multiple ones from several manus) say "i am safe and the manus will not bother you.
doesnt say i can KJ woth a s**t, but they wont get hassled.
i can pour a shot, but without a certificate, i can not serve at a bar. i COULD....but the venue wold be at risk for fines. to me this looks similar.
What you're describing is nothing more than "selling fear" that says; "if you want karaoke you have to hire us or you might get sued." It's a bunch of crap IMHO, and this will simply make it easier for venues to drop karaoke altogether.
And no, this is not similar. Who would be issuing fines if you started serving at a bar? Would it be the liquor companies or a gov't agency? THAT'S the difference.
Exactly. I can deal with pirates. I can deal with undercutters. I can deal with anyone that wants to be my competition. But once the venue closes the door to Karaoke, that opportunity is gone.What you're describing is nothing more than "selling fear" that says; "if you want karaoke you have to hire us or you might get sued." It's a bunch of crap IMHO, and this will simply make it easier for venues to drop karaoke altogether.
Exactly. I can deal with pirates. I can deal with undercutters. I can deal with anyone that wants to be my competition. But once the venue closes the door to Karaoke, that opportunity is gone.
...And THAT can and has happened here thanks to a vendor, while I have had nothing I couldn't handle from undercutters and such.
G
Guest
Guest
Well the way I look at it if 10 of every 20 venues stop doing karaoke and the 10 that are left insist on KJs who have certified libraries then there is no loss to anyone but the pirates, and maybe to the venues who were stupid enough to cut their nose of to spite there faces.
There is already a federal agency that takes up these matters, it is called the Federal District Court. The manus have every right to ask the KJs to certify their libraries just as each person out here has every right to refuse to do so, the manus also have every right to sue any KJ who is operating illegally (even 1:1 if the transfer was done without permission) they also have the right to sue venues who are making money from illegal karaoke operations.
After a few go through it (as Joe said) the word will get around amoung the bars, if 90 out of 100 are running with a pirate host and they shut down it still hasn't hurt the legit operator, in fact it should increase traffic at the shows that are legal and thus revenues for the venues that continue with this form of entertainment, that in turn can lead to an increase in pay for the legit host (but only if you are willing to ask for it)!
I have already given the safe harbor brochure to all my venues with my SC certification number on it and will be doing the same with the CB certificate when I receive it, and the same with any other manu that decides to start doing the same thing.
What is to fear, I have already seen an increase in request for a show from venues since the lawsuits (both of them) hit Virginia, I realize that Joe and others have seen a decrease in venues in the areas where no suits have been filed, doesn't make much sense that it has anything to do with the lawsuits.
There is already a federal agency that takes up these matters, it is called the Federal District Court. The manus have every right to ask the KJs to certify their libraries just as each person out here has every right to refuse to do so, the manus also have every right to sue any KJ who is operating illegally (even 1:1 if the transfer was done without permission) they also have the right to sue venues who are making money from illegal karaoke operations.
After a few go through it (as Joe said) the word will get around amoung the bars, if 90 out of 100 are running with a pirate host and they shut down it still hasn't hurt the legit operator, in fact it should increase traffic at the shows that are legal and thus revenues for the venues that continue with this form of entertainment, that in turn can lead to an increase in pay for the legit host (but only if you are willing to ask for it)!
I have already given the safe harbor brochure to all my venues with my SC certification number on it and will be doing the same with the CB certificate when I receive it, and the same with any other manu that decides to start doing the same thing.
What is to fear, I have already seen an increase in request for a show from venues since the lawsuits (both of them) hit Virginia, I realize that Joe and others have seen a decrease in venues in the areas where no suits have been filed, doesn't make much sense that it has anything to do with the lawsuits.
1) Well the way I look at it if 10 of every 20 venues stop doing karaoke and the 10 that are left insist on KJs who have certified libraries then there is no loss to anyone
2) There is already a federal agency that takes up these matters, it is called the Federal District Court. The manus have every right to ask the KJs to certify their libraries just as each person out here has every right to refuse to do so, the manus also have every right to sue any KJ who is operating illegally (even 1:1 if the transfer was done without permission) they also have the right to sue venues who are making money from illegal karaoke operations.
3) After a few go through it (as Joe said) the word will get around amoung the bars,
4) , I realize that Joe and others have seen a decrease in venues in the areas where no suits have been filed, doesn't make much sense that it has anything to do with the lawsuits.
1) Steve, if you think losing half of all possible karaoke venues is fine, we will have to disagree in regard to sensible business practices and ideas...
2) Sure, anyone has a right to do anything, I guess- at least once. However, if it is found to be done frivolously or without just cause, anyone might also have to deal with the repercussions- which is why no one has seen a court date yet.
3) I'm guessing that you're talking about another Joe here...not me.
4) As explained ad nauseum, but apparently ignored, venues want smooth sailing. If they hear through negative publicity spread by mfrs., newspapers, the net, or even WOM from folks in beleaguered areas that karaoke is trouble, they simply "Just Say No". No suits required....
G
Guest
Guest
1) Steve, if you think losing half of all possible karaoke venues is fine, we will have to disagree in regard to sensible business practices and ideas...
2) Sure, anyone has a right to do anything, I guess- at least once. However, if it is found to be done frivolously or without just cause, anyone might also have to deal with the repercussions- which is why no one has seen a court date yet.
3) I'm guessing that you're talking about another Joe here...not me.
4) As explained ad nauseum, but apparently ignored, venues want smooth sailing. If they hear through negative publicity spread by mfrs., newspapers, the net, or even WOM from folks in beleaguered areas that karaoke is trouble, they simply "Just Say No". No suits required....
Joe I believe in several post (including the one above) that you stated:
Originally Posted by Big Joe: But once the venue closes the door to Karaoke, that opportunity is gone.
Originally Posted by Joe C: ...And THAT can and has happened here thanks to a vendor, while I have had nothing I couldn't handle from undercutters and such.
The problem I see with your scenerio is that I and others have not seen the same thing in areas that have been hit with actual lawsuits, I am not saying that venues aren't closing down karaoke in your area but more than likely they are doing so because of poorly run shows not bringing cash flow.
Perhaps the lawsuits is simply a pretty good excuse to use to keep from hurting a lousy host's feelings!
Perhaps a poll of people who are in areas that have seen suits filed will give us a better perspective.
Well the way I look at it if 10 of every 20 venues stop doing karaoke and the 10 that are left insist on KJs who have certified libraries then there is no loss to anyone but the pirates, and maybe to the venues who were stupid enough to cut their nose of to spite there faces.
So is that now the current mindset? Anyone not certified is now a pirate? I don't remember you feeling that way before you were certified. Back then it was KJ's that didn't even own 1 disc, multi-op's running several systems off of a single set of discs, and so on. Now that you've been audited voluntarilly you've changed your mind? And after how many years of running off of a PC? You change your standards pretty quickly. I guess if it's beneifts Thunder, it's good enough to force on everyone.
There is already a federal agency that takes up these matters, it is called the Federal District Court. The manus have every right to ask the KJs to certify their libraries just as each person out here has every right to refuse to do so, the manus also have every right to sue any KJ who is operating illegally (even 1:1 if the transfer was done without permission) they also have the right to sue venues who are making money from illegal karaoke operations.
The manus also have every right to ask me to please cover my mouth when I cough. I have every right to ask them to step outside if they need to fart. As far as an actual suit making it to a court room for a KJ with discs going to court, I won't hold my breath.
After a few go through it (as Joe said) the word will get around amoung the bars, if 90 out of 100 are running with a pirate host and they shut down it still hasn't hurt the legit operator, in fact it should increase traffic at the shows that are legal and thus revenues for the venues that continue with this form of entertainment, that in turn can lead to an increase in pay for the legit host (but only if you are willing to ask for it)!
Until you can provide actual proof as to the numbers, all you are doing is making assumptions.
I have already given the safe harbor brochure to all my venues with my SC certification number on it and will be doing the same with the CB certificate when I receive it, and the same with any other manu that decides to start doing the same thing.
If it's working for you, keep it up.
What is to fear, I have already seen an increase in request for a show from venues since the lawsuits (both of them) hit Virginia, I realize that Joe and others have seen a decrease in venues in the areas where no suits have been filed, doesn't make much sense that it has anything to do with the lawsuits.
It makes perfect sense.
G
Guest
Guest
So is that now the current mindset? Anyone not certified is now a pirate? I don't remember you feeling that way before you were certified. Back then it was KJ's that didn't even own 1 disc, multi-op's running several systems off of a single set of discs, and so on. Now that you've been audited voluntarilly you've changed your mind? And after how many years of running off of a PC? You change your standards pretty quickly. I guess if it's beneifts Thunder, it's good enough to force on everyone.
Apparently you you hjaven't read any of my post on the subject!
The manus also have every right to ask me to please cover my mouth when I cough. I have every right to ask them to step outside if they need to fart. As far as an actual suit making it to a court room for a KJ with discs going to court, I won't hold my breath.
I though the consensus amoung the anti's was that NO case would ever go to court!
Until you can provide actual proof as to the numbers, all you are doing is making assumptions.
I don't know but I think I said IF, however feel free to use your own numbers!
If it's working for you, keep it up.
I intend to as I intend to keep handing them out to venues that I am not working at!
It makes perfect sense.
If you say so! :rolleyespill:
If you say so! :rolleyespill:
Aw, c'mon, I dont really feel like going back looking through a bunch of posts. We're both here right now. How 'bout just giving me a straight answer?
Simple question Thunder, all it takes is a yes or no.
You said this:
So I'll ask once more. Do you consider anyone not certified and using a computer to be a pirate?
You said this:
Well the way I look at it if 10 of every 20 venues stop doing karaoke and the 10 that are left insist on KJs who have certified libraries then there is no loss to anyone but the pirates, and maybe to the venues who were stupid enough to cut their nose of to spite there faces.
So I'll ask once more. Do you consider anyone not certified and using a computer to be a pirate?
G
Guest
Guest
I am 100% certified (every disc is accounted for and for every song in my book match to a disc in my collection) so it doesn't get better than that! My library is "pristine" and I DO have integrity.
Magic tricks might be how you would perceive it be done but how would you know Since you have Never met anyone that has been through the audit you are assuming that they lack integrity.
I see, so now it's "hope" and "faith?" We should endorse the program because "I've done it" and "I promise I'm a good person?"
This is not a religious expereince. Each and every day it becomes even more childish: the sorry sight of a few desperate KJs sucking on a dry pacifier. How could you be anything other than insulted when you work so hard at demeaning yourselves?
The merits of an idea have to stand on their own. It matters not who endorses it or from where it came. Too many questions left unanswered, so many points ignored, and the best argument being offered is let's "hope" and "try it." No, thank you.
Simple question Thunder, all it takes is a yes or no.
You said this:
So I'll ask once more. Do you consider anyone not certified and using a computer to be a pirate?
I would like to answer that question from my prospective if that's ok with you?
It is not a simple yes or no because the multible conditions of the question.
Not being certified does not make you a pirate but the use of the computer is a tool that could be used by certified and non-certified kjs alike. See the caveat you created in the way that question was phrased.
In the future, I think the time will come after a few more suits against pirate operations (venues and/or kjs) have taken place, and venues and kj alike have accepted to settle and then the value of having our karaoke libraries verified as legal will be a requirement from prospective venues so they will not be possibly drawn into a court. Of course there will be the venues that really could care less and will continue to do business as usual but that will be a reduced number of those around anyway.
Let me ask you a question,
This should be a yes or no answer.
In the future, after all the dust settles and suit were filed and cases settled and pirate kjs were exposed for who they are and how they operated outside the (copyright) law. If, the only way a venue you wanted to work for required you to have your library verified so they could stay out of court, would you get your library certified?
