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No discussion of Trayvon Martin?
- Thread starter ennui
- Start date
It doesn't matter if he's unarmed or not. A private citizen cannot just shoot someone on the street.
It gets a little gray IF the shooter in question has a permit to carry and IF the shooter in question was defending his life. The shooter in question definitely did NOT have a permit to carry. What he did was murder.
There is no open-carry law in Florida. Private citizens may have properly licensed handguns in their vehicle, but they must be secured in a glove box, other box with a lid, the trunk, in a snap holster (not on their person, either, on the car), etc. If Martin had attempted to carjack Mr Zimmerman by sticking a gun in his face, then Mr. Zimmerman could have lawfully shot him, AFTER retrieving his gun from wherever it was secured.
But that, is not what happened.
We can't have people doing this, guys. It's a short jump from this to people going out and shooting kids for playing their music too loud, or popping firecrackers, or a teacher waiting and shooting some kid in the parking lot because he is a disruptive punk, or a convenience store owner going out and shooting someone for stealing gas.
Vigilante justice went out in the 1800s already, and was decidedly made clearly unlawful during the civil rights movement in the 60s.
From Mr Zimmerman's history, this eventual outcome was predictable. Too bad for Trayvon Martin that nobody got him under control while it was still possible.
How do we know this did not happen?
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Following someone is not illegal. Did Zimmerman have the gun out? Did Trayvon know he had a gun? I doubt he did if he attacked him, which IS illegal.
Look at it logically. There is no open-carry law in Florida. It is unlawful to carry a gun in public, unless you have a carry permit, which Mr Zimmerman did not. From his own version of events, he was beaten up by Martin, at which point Zimmerman shot him in the chest.
Where did he get the gun? Was he carrying it? If so, any defensive action Martin may have taken would be reasonable. Did Zimmerman run back to his car to get the gun, then shoot Martin? If so, that is murder. Intent was there. There was a chance to stop himself. If he went to his car to retrieve the gun, it isn't even manslaughter any more, it's just murder.
Using the very simplest of agreed-upon facts as reported (by the police), Mr Zimmerman is a private person not associated with law enforcement. This private person attempted to detain a teenage child, which is kidnapping. Then Zimmerman shot him in the chest. In every state killing someone in the course of a kidnapping is felony murder. That may not have been what Mr Zimmerman intended, but it's what happened because of the events he himself put in motion.
no. ****.
the outrage is that he hasn't been arrested to try him.
I think that if the media reported that it was in self defense (as the police found it to be) from the beginning, there wouldn't be as much outrage.
But like I said, I do think this needs to go to court.
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I'm not an expert by any means and I am curious to hear what other's think he muttered at the 2:20 point in the tape.
Because, AGAIN, I CANNOT BELIEVE what I think I hear.
I don't want to say it because of the power of suggestion. If my kids were home I would have them listen & tell me what they think.
The Governor of FL has a special prosecutor & linguist working on this very point, because if he said what you think he said, that makes this a federal civil rights case.
No the issue is that Zimmerman allegedly profiled a black youth, followed him, VERBALLY confronted him, was attacked by said youth and shot him in self defense.
The first illegal act was by Martin in attacking Zimmerman.... Profiling, following, and verbally confronting someone are not nice things to do but they are not illegal.... Breaking someone's nose and smashing their head into a sidewalk are illegal and if someone did that to me I would consider my life in danger (as you can easily die from your head being smashed into the sidewalk) and take any action I believed would save my life including shooting someone.
Martin attacked Zimmerman? He wasn't defending himself? But Zimmerman was defending himself against Martin, yet Martin couldn't possibly have been defending himself against Zimmerman?
If a man was following me in the dark, even after I ran away, I would consider MY life to be in danger & I would do what I had to do to try to protect myself. If that meant bashing his head in & busting his nose, that's what I would do. Just like I have told my kids that if they are ever assaulted (stranger danger & all of that) that they are to fight like hell- kick, scream, bite, gouge at the eyes- to get away. That's seems a little more plausible to me than Martin "starting it."
I cannot believe people are SERIOUSLY defending a man who stalked a teenager through his neighborhood & shot & killed him! A man who said "These assholes, they always get away" and "****ing ****s"...wow. A man who was told NOT to follow him & did it anyway. He knew **** well what he was doing, which is why he told the dispatcher to have the police call him instead of him meeting them at a set location- because he was in hot persuit of a boy wearing a scarrryyyyyyyy hoodie wielding a bag of skittles and he wasn't going to stay put until he found him. No one asked him to be The Hero of Sanford, protecting the residents from a series of break ins.
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How do we know this did not happen?
Have you read some news source that claims Martin attempted to carjack Zimmerman?
The Governor of FL has a special prosecutor & linguist working on this very point, because if he said what you think he said, that makes this a federal civil rights case.
As it should be. And I don't think for a minute the word was "goons" or that that is a term of endearment. Sure sounds like "****s" to me.
I am more appalled now than I was a week ago.
Look at it logically. There is no open-carry law in Florida. It is unlawful to carry a gun in public, unless you have a carry permit, which Mr Zimmerman did not. From his own version of events, he was beaten up by Martin, at which point Zimmerman shot him in the chest.
Where did he get the gun? Was he carrying it? If so, any defensive action Martin may have taken would be reasonable. Did Zimmerman run back to his car to get the gun, then shoot Martin? If so, that is murder. Intent was there. There was a chance to stop himself. If he went to his car to retrieve the gun, it isn't even manslaughter any more, it's just murder.
Using the very simplest of agreed-upon facts as reported (by the police), Mr Zimmerman is a private person not associated with law enforcement. This private person attempted to detain a teenage child, which is kidnapping. Then Zimmerman shot him in the chest. In every state killing someone in the course of a kidnapping is felony murder. That may not have been what Mr Zimmerman intended, but it's what happened because of the events he himself put in motion.
Where does it say he "detained him"??? And how do you know he wasn't licensed to carry a gun? Honestly asking because I haven't seen any proof of this.
Have you read some news source that claims Martin attempted to carjack Zimmerman?
No, but I did read that he went back to his car and then Trayvon approached him. How do we know it wasn't taken from the car then?
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The police have confirmed he had no permit to carry. (Since I wrote this, now there is a news source that says he does have a permit to carry. All this "news" is so hard to keep up with!)
Simply asking him who he was and following him and demanding he stop to answer questions was attempting to detain him.
If someone (not law enforcement) followed your child, asking them who they were, what they were doing, stop I want to talk to you, what would you have trained them to do in that situation?
Simply asking him who he was and following him and demanding he stop to answer questions was attempting to detain him.
If someone (not law enforcement) followed your child, asking them who they were, what they were doing, stop I want to talk to you, what would you have trained them to do in that situation?
I cannot believe people are SERIOUSLY defending a man who stalked a teenager through his neighborhood & shot & killed him! A man who said "These assholes, they always get away" and "****ing ****s"...wow. A man who was told NOT to follow him & did it anyway. He knew **** well what he was doing, which is why he told the dispatcher to have the police call him instead of him meeting them at a set location- because he was in hot persuit of a boy wearing a scarrryyyyyyyy hoodie wielding a bag of skittles and he wasn't going to stay put until he found him. No one asked him to be The Hero of Sanford, protecting the residents from a series of break ins.
[sarcasm]
but, but, but that's just liberal media opinion, not the fair and balanced facts. He's innocent until proven guilty, so I'll continue to defend him. Trayvon didn't deserve to get shot, but he's guilty--that much I know.
:tmi:
[/sarcasm]
There is no face palm image strong enough to show my disgust for the justifiers.....
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No, but I did read that he went back to his car and then Trayvon approached him. How do we know it wasn't taken from the car then?
If that is what happened (and I'm not saying it is), then instead of taking the time run to his car, taking the time to remove his firearm from its proper container (because there is no open-carry law in FL) and then taking the time to shoot Martin in the chest, perhaps a more reasonable course of action would have been to simply lock himself in his car until the police arrived? No?
If he had the gun on his person and had a carry permit PERHAPS a jury could find him not guilty of murder. However, he had no carry permit (edit: again, a late-breaking news source now says he has a permit to carry, though that was not as reported over the past few weeks). If he had the gun on him, it's murder. If he ran back to the car to get the gun, it's murder.
It really is very simple.
The police have confirmed he had no permit to carry.
Simply asking him who he was and following him and demanding he stop to answer questions was attempting to detain him.
If someone (not law enforcement) followed your child, asking them who they were, what they were doing, stop I want to talk to you, what would you have trained them to do in that situation?
Where was this confirmed? All of the media reports (which could be wrong) say he had one. In fact there was an out cry that he still had one after this happened.
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I edited on the permit to carry issue. That is just one of many points as reported that has changed over the course of the past month.
I edited on the permit to carry issue. That is just one of many points as reported that has changed over the course of the past month.
kinda like the report of calling 311 (that was reported in the beginning)
I think that if the media reported that it was in self defense (as the police found it to be) from the beginning, there wouldn't be as much outrage.
But like I said, I do think this needs to go to court.
Can you please show me this beginning you keep talking about, you repeatedly say this, but you obviously are talking about the past week or so...at first this was reported as nothing but self defense and it was a neighborhood watchman shoots a man dead since they had no idea who Trayvon even was...please go read about the beginning in February.
You are saying so many things that aren't true as fact, I am not sure if you are going by hearsay or what, but you need to find out for yourself.
Can you please show me this beginning you keep talking about, you repeatedly say this, but you obviously are talking about the past week or so...at first this was reported as nothing but self defense and it was a neighborhood watchman shoots a man dead since they had no idea who Trayvon even was...please go read about the beginning in February.
You are saying so many things that aren't true as fact, I am not sure if you are going by hearsay or what, but you need to find out for yourself.
Yes, Zimmerman has always claimed self defense but now the evidence has shown that Zimmerman was attacked by Martin. None of this was discussed in the beginning. Zimmerman was found guilty before any of the facts came out.
A
autumnsky
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Now it's reported he has a permit to carry?! See?! That's what I've been saying...there's more to the story! It isn't as simple as he "murdered" him... Again, I'm not saying Trayvon deserved to die or not... and not saying Zimmerman is innocent or not... there's more to the story, but everyone picks a side and starts a news frenzy across the U.S. and protests.
These are great discussions..by the way. Everyone gets everyone thinking...seriously.
These are great discussions..by the way. Everyone gets everyone thinking...seriously.
