Maybe things are just different here.:rolleyespill:
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Maybe things are just different here.:rolleyespill:
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- #122
Thread Owner
Must be, real different!
Must be, real different!
Yes, considering that my area has at least 10x the population of yours, and easily a few hundred or so more available venues, it is real different.
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- #124
Thread Owner
Sound Choice said:So, if hosts have all the original legal discs to support a 1:1 media shift, why would they delete SC content from their libraries? When Chartbusters or Stellar begin to take similar actions, are these same hosts all of a sudden going to decide they have a some altruistic problem with those manufacturers also? Or is it simply that most of their content is pirated material and they are trying to hide the fact that they ever had illegal material by deleting it ahead of any investigation?
Just rhetorical questions.
It's not a rhetorical question. It's a bald faced accusation and a great example of why hosts are removing SC product in order to protect their employers from SC harrassment.
I'll be happy to reply: When the other manufcaturers follow along in kind the bar owner's wil simply replace karaoke with some other less PITA entertainment.
There are plenty of cover bands available to work just for the exposure alone, and then there's always the DJs.
It's also really easy to fill all those karaoke monitors with ESPN.
To be honest, I don't have a big awareness of people asking specifically for SC at our shows. When they do, I always wonder if I need to check for wires or something. What I notice is the dancing, the people who can't help playing along with the guitar parts and the lack of "What the H is this?" looks from the singers (I dread that look). But then we have the manu code for each song in our books.
Last night our friends called to ask how we numbered our discs and made our books so that people know what brand the songs are. (Hand type to Excel, still.) They said that people keep asking them if it is SC and they are tired of digging out the disc first to check. I asked them if these people were carrying cameras.........but odd we should get that call at this point in the discussion. I guess some people do care, even out in the middle of nowhere. It actually surprised me as we are in a country area and both of our libraries have a lot of CB. But we do have a segment that likes their 60s-90's rock so that may account for it.
Well--have actually thought of another reason which is sort of ironic--until they recently reduced their song list to 2000 songs, the show next door used to brag about having everything. We tried to counter by saying we would order anything someone wanted to sing that we didn't have. We started getting requests for all sorts of Sound Choice songs that either were no longer available or would require us buying an entire Brick for one song--"Sink the Bismark," "Johnny Reb," etc. I used to suspect it was on purpose. But possibly the People and that rhymes with P and that stands for----next door trained the area to want SC. And now they don't have much of theirs anymore.
Last night our friends called to ask how we numbered our discs and made our books so that people know what brand the songs are. (Hand type to Excel, still.) They said that people keep asking them if it is SC and they are tired of digging out the disc first to check. I asked them if these people were carrying cameras.........but odd we should get that call at this point in the discussion. I guess some people do care, even out in the middle of nowhere. It actually surprised me as we are in a country area and both of our libraries have a lot of CB. But we do have a segment that likes their 60s-90's rock so that may account for it.
Well--have actually thought of another reason which is sort of ironic--until they recently reduced their song list to 2000 songs, the show next door used to brag about having everything. We tried to counter by saying we would order anything someone wanted to sing that we didn't have. We started getting requests for all sorts of Sound Choice songs that either were no longer available or would require us buying an entire Brick for one song--"Sink the Bismark," "Johnny Reb," etc. I used to suspect it was on purpose. But possibly the People and that rhymes with P and that stands for----next door trained the area to want SC. And now they don't have much of theirs anymore.
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- #126
Thread Owner
If a venue owner were thinking clearly, he might have this train of thought instead: "Wow, I am glad that someone is doing something to stem the oversaturation of karaoke bars in my area. With all the new bars popping up offering karaoke, I notice fewer and fewer singers for OUR karaoke nights and my receipts going down. I am either going to have to ask my host to take a cut in pay or go find another host to do it cheaper. Or just drop it all together. I heard my host complaining about that new guy down the street just starting in business with a ton of songs he got for nothing, but what can I do about it? I wish SOMEONE would do something about all these guys popping up like that!! "
ROTFLMAO - you've got your priorities out of alignment. They are not: "Karaoke bars." They are first and foremost "bars" and then they add entertainment which might include karaoke.
Anything that might motivate my client to hire a lawyer and accrue that expense (even just too respond to a letter) is something I am going to protect them from. Period.
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- #127
Thread Owner
To be honest, I don't have a big awareness of people asking specifically for SC at our shows. When they do, I always wonder if I need to check for wires or something. What I notice is the dancing, the people who can't help playing along with the guitar parts and the lack of "What the H is this?" looks from the singers (I dread that look). But then we have the manu code for each song in our books.
Last night our friends called to ask how we numbered our discs and made our books so that people know what brand the songs are. (Hand type to Excel, still.) They said that people keep asking them if it is SC and they are tired of digging out the disc first to check. I asked them if these people were carrying cameras.........but odd we should get that call at this point in the discussion. I guess some people do care, even out in the middle of nowhere. It actually surprised me as we are in a country area and both of our libraries have a lot of CB. But we do have a segment that likes their 60s-90's rock so that may account for it.
Well--have actually thought of another reason which is sort of ironic--until they recently reduced their song list to 2000 songs, the show next door used to brag about having everything. We tried to counter by saying we would order anything someone wanted to sing that we didn't have. We started getting requests for all sorts of Sound Choice songs that either were no longer available or would require us buying an entire Brick for one song--"Sink the Bismark," "Johnny Reb," etc. I used to suspect it was on purpose. But possibly the People and that rhymes with P and that stands for----next door trained the area to want SC. And now they don't have much of theirs anymore.
I don't get it all the time because if I have it on Sound Choice that is the version I try to always play, but I work in a college town and from time to time new people coming into a show will ask specifically for SC versions!
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Proformance said:ROTFLMAO - you've got your priorities out of alignment. They are not: "Karaoke bars." They are first and foremost "bars" and then they add entertainment which might include karaoke.
Anything that might motivate my client to hire a lawyer and accrue that expense (even just too respond to a letter) is something I am going to protect them from. Period.
I might be off base, but I figured that they were FIRST AND FOREMOST BUSINESSES. And for the most part (as long as they are not-for-profit) their goal is to maximize profits. They would not add karaoke or any form of entertainment that did not add to their bottom line - that's why there are always so many new "gimmicks" in the nightclub and bar business. Presumably if they are paying attention to the bottom line (which is why they usually consider hiring a $75 a night pirate host) they are going to look at their receipts on the nights they have karaoke and also from season to season or year to year and compare them. If there were fewer singers as measured by body count and receipts, because there are other bars in the area springing up with new hosts, they SHOULD be concerned and evaluating what to change, either internally in their operations or externally in their market.
And our Safe Harbor program was developed partly for the reason that you mention - no hassle for the bar and no PITA problems - for the bar that is. For the pirate host, it's a different story, possibly. Remember they are choosing to remain pirates, we aren't making them that way. With our products and financing possibilities, they really have no VALID excuse for continuing to steal our content.
One of our new Licensees for the Gem set today told my sales rep that the bar who was hiring him fired the pirate host (named in our suit and who did not take the opportunity to settle) and was hiring him ONLY on the condition that he was legal. So, he contacted us and we got him set up. This is an example of our "plan" working perfectly.
Another host from CA today said his buddy got a Letter of Intent to Sue and warned him to contact us ahead of being investigated, which he was doing. He is getting licensed product from us and said he was going to save his money and buy another license as soon as he could because he was aware of other pirate hosts quitting the business in LA since we began actions out there. He said he recognized that meant new opportunities for him, especially since he could openly solicit these venues without fear of being asked if he were legal.
These two cases alone today give me encouragement that we are making POSITIVE steps to improve the market for legitimate hosts and hosts who want to become legitimate and run their shows like a business.
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Letters of intent in the Los Angeles area of California Kurt?
Very nice!
:yahclap:
Very nice!
:yahclap:
I might be off base, but I figured that they were FIRST AND FOREMOST BUSINESSES. And for the most part (as long as they are not-for-profit) their goal is to maximize profits. They would not add karaoke or any form of entertainment that did not add to their bottom line - that's why there are always so many new "gimmicks" in the nightclub and bar business. Presumably if they are paying attention to the bottom line (which is why they usually consider hiring a $75 a night pirate host) they are going to look at their receipts on the nights they have karaoke and also from season to season or year to year and compare them. If there were fewer singers as measured by body count and receipts, because there are other bars in the area springing up with new hosts, they SHOULD be concerned and evaluating what to change, either internally in their operations or externally in their market.
Sure, there are lots of bar gimmicks and karaoke is just one more.
And our Safe Harbor program was developed partly for the reason that you mention - no hassle for the bar and no PITA problems - for the bar that is. For the pirate host, it's a different story, possibly. Remember they are choosing to remain pirates, we aren't making them that way. With our products and financing possibilities, they really have no VALID excuse for continuing to steal our content.
Your "safe harbor program" is IN MY OPINION, nothing more than a "contract for the stupid." It's all a PITA... I'm sure that there are some idiots that will be tricked into signing it, but I can't understand why unless they simply don't read it at all. Why would any business sign away their rights in a contract that gives you permission not only to sue them, but dictate to them who will be working in their club? All for what? A $75/night KJ? You'd really have to either and idiot or an 8th grader to fall for that.
One of our new Licensees for the Gem set today told my sales rep that the bar who was hiring him fired the pirate host (named in our suit and who did not take the opportunity to settle) and was hiring him ONLY on the condition that he was legal. So, he contacted us and we got him set up. This is an example of our "plan" working perfectly.
Your "plan" (as you call it) is nothing more than a sales game based on fear IN MY OPINION. Because all the KJ would have had to do is to stop using SC products. No letter, no suit and he wouldn't have been fired.
"We got him set up" is nothing more than another "sale" isn't it Kurt? Please don't make it sound like you're some kind of angel saving the world from piracy - you're simply selling your products to anyone you can convince to rent them. You're not "helping legitimate KJ's" in any way, shape or form. You're simply making it much CHEAPER for the current pirates to stay right where they are.
Another host from CA today said his buddy got a Letter of Intent to Sue and warned him to contact us ahead of being investigated, which he was doing. He is getting licensed product from us and said he was going to save his money and buy another license as soon as he could because he was aware of other pirate hosts quitting the business in LA since we began actions out there. He said he recognized that meant new opportunities for him, especially since he could openly solicit these venues without fear of being asked if he were legal.
Did some advertising copywriter jot that paragraph down for you? It reads like a fairytale on a cereal box:
1. "A host from CA"
2. "Said his buddy got a letter"
3. "and warned him to contact us"
4. "ahead of being investigated"
(time out: shouldn't they be "investigated BEFORE they get a letter? Or are you just mailing letters to everyone and waiting to see who will fall for it? )
5. "He is getting licensed product from us"
6. "said he was going to save his money and buy another license as soon as he could"
7. "because he was aware of other pirate hosts quitting the business"
8. "He said he recognized that meant new opportunities for him"
(Absolutely: he now has the opportunity to pay you for a long time.... just the kind of sucker you're looking for right? Because he won't get many more jobs and he certainly won't be able to "command more money" but who cares? He's already on your hook.)
9. "especially since he could openly solicit these venues without fear of being asked if he were legal"
Asked by who? You? The club? What's there to stop that? Your own agreement with your licensees specifically grant you the right to ask that question whenever you friggin' want.
How about helping out the "legitimate" KJ in NV that is so legal (and broke) he can only update his music every 6 months? His KIAA membership isn't helping him much as half of his investment in your products and equipment sits in a corner 6 out of 7 days a week? You are not helping him one bit are you?
These two cases alone today give me encouragement that we are making POSITIVE steps to improve the market for legitimate hosts and hosts who want to become legitimate and run their shows like a business.
How are you "improving the market?" IN MY OPINION, you've done (and are doing) nothing for the "legitimate host" that spent much MORE on your product in advance than you are offering the pirate competition at a cheaply financed discount price.
I went back and looked at my old receipts.... I paid $46.10 per disc for a Spotlight disc from one of your national distributors.... or about $3 per song... the ones you now "finance" are at $0.67 each. So how are you helping me again?
I'm only going to say this one more time....Sound Choice's efforts were successful here, they rid us of a couple of the larger multi-riggers and not a SINGLE karaoke bar got rid of karaoke altogether after the suits came through here. I know some of you want to believe it will cause venues to drop Karaoke but i'm sorry it didn't happen. If you want the facts i am referring to you can go through the numerous posts i've already posted on the matter. Karaoke is bigger than ever here and some of that credit is due to Sound Choice. Remember not to be against something just because you THINK it might go one way or the other, even if it's not their primary agenda, i applaud and thank them for helping the KJ's here regardless of their intentions. Whatever side you're on you should be able to say that clearing out the larger pirates in the area is a good thing. Yes, my market is only one part of the country but if that's how it went here i expect it will be similar around the country, and honestly i haven't heard any different. Most of the Sound Choice bashing is on morals because they are the " Big Bad Wolf " finally enforcing the theft of their products. Technically we've been asking for someone to at least attempt to do something for years and just because someone is in it to collect money their the bad guys? Be careful what you wish for. As to the argument they aren't leveling the playing field because the pirates can get the music cheaper than you did " back in the day " , are you kidding me?!? If you called Sound Choice right now to buy the music you will pay HALF of what they are charging the pirates. HALF. What people paid in the past is irrelevant, that's just the way of the market, you could buy the music signifigantly cheaper than they could RIGHT NOW. I commend Sound Choice, and i hope they continue to be as successful in these suits.
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to add to what Loneavenger was getting to, you can get the music for cheaper now than when they started making it because the prices of the items have come down as does many products out there. TV's, Computers, heck even the players for the karaoke units have come down in price. You can get a full library for less than most of us have spent over the years.
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- #133
Thread Owner
I'm only going to say this one more time....Sound Choice's efforts were successful here, they rid us of a couple of the larger multi-riggers and not a SINGLE karaoke bar got rid of karaoke altogether after the suits came through here. I know some of you want to believe it will cause venues to drop Karaoke but i'm sorry it didn't happen. If you want the facts i am referring to you can go through the numerous posts i've already posted on the matter. Karaoke is bigger than ever here and some of that credit is due to Sound Choice. Remember not to be against something just because you THINK it might go one way or the other, even if it's not their primary agenda, i applaud and thank them for helping the KJ's here regardless of their intentions. Whatever side you're on you should be able to say that clearing out the larger pirates in the area is a good thing. Yes, my market is only one part of the country but if that's how it went here i expect it will be similar around the country, and honestly i haven't heard any different. Most of the Sound Choice bashing is on morals because they are the " Big Bad Wolf " finally enforcing the theft of their products. Technically we've been asking for someone to at least attempt to do something for years and just because someone is in it to collect money their the bad guys? Be careful what you wish for. As to the argument they aren't leveling the playing field because the pirates can get the music cheaper than you did " back in the day " , are you kidding me?!? If you called Sound Choice right now to buy the music you will pay HALF of what they are charging the pirates. HALF. What people paid in the past is irrelevant, that's just the way of the market, you could buy the music signifigantly cheaper than they could RIGHT NOW. I commend Sound Choice, and i hope they continue to be as successful in these suits.
What you're lacking is any evidence that the people you claim have been run out of town were in fact: "pirates." I'm not willing to rely on the hearsay of you or SC and there are already too many examples to the contrary to justify support for their effort.
Thank you, but their methods and practice speaks for itself.
What you're lacking is any evidence that the people you claim have been run out of town were in fact: "pirates." I'm not willing to rely on the hearsay of you or SC and there are already too many examples to the contrary to justify support for their effort.
Thank you, but their methods and practice speaks for itself.
Well, as stated in the past this is an internet forum so i can't force you to believe what i say but what i can tell you is those multi-riggers were pirates. They not only used downloaded and illegally bought and copied harddrives but they went around bragging about the fact that they did. That's the thing about being in the market in this particular area for 10 years, i know all of the hosts and company's very well and i do know if they are legitimate or not. I haven't heard of a single innocent person shut down due to these suits?
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- #135
Thread Owner
These two cases alone today give me encouragement that we are making POSITIVE steps to improve the market for legitimate hosts and hosts who want to become legitimate and run their shows like a business.
Let me give you a more realistic testimonial from somone who makes many times more than $75 for karaoke:
I owned a few SC discs that supplemented one of my underlying DK millenium sets. I sold that set some time ago to a friend working in a major theme park.
My recommendation since has been that he remove any SC product to prevent your campaign from needlessly threatening his employer and jeopardizing the entirety of his entertainment contracts with the park. The songs are easily replaced with other manufactured versions. As professionals, it's our job to AVOID outside intrusions and distractions rather than to placate them at our own or our employers expense of time or money.
I sympathize with your campaign against the rough bottom edge of karaoke - but for the true business minded people with tens-of-thousands of etertainment revenues at risk SC is a liability we can easily avoid.
I would suggest (and I think you already know) that your real problem is technological and your market niche - not simply the end users or abusers. You simply don't seem to have the resources to move forward with a profitble product/service model. Hence, the reason so many of us recognize your campaign as a short term and thinly veiled cash cow.
Do I sympathize with the guys selling and buying these HDs, or duping CDGs? Not at all. But that's not my world, and I'm not happy about your efforts to drag the rest of us into yours with these wide nets and accusations you want to toss around.
For me, using a computer is increasing a venue's esposure more than using SC so people who are truly concerned about protecting their venues should consider that. Expecially if other manufacturers do jump on the bandwagon. We use discs, we display a Safe Harbor number just for the heck of it, we make sure the venue knows what they are getting into and how to avoid trouble. We minimize their risk by operating legally and showing that we are operating legally. When we switch to computer we will register the library if that is what it takes to keep our venues safe. I feel that is enough. I don't have to give up using something I legally acquired.
The venue needs to cover it's own butt by knowing the requirements and being in compliance with ASCAP et al, legal host, etc. Otherwise just having karaoke at all could get them sued, SC or not. The most I can do is make sure they know what is required and operate legally ourselves and let as many people who might be interested see that we are operating legally. We keep our receipts and we keep informed as to what is going on. I have our discs organized on Excel so we could easily produce a "pedigree" if need be and clear up any questions quickly. Where the venue choose to take it from there is part of the risk they assume just by opening their doors.
The venue needs to cover it's own butt by knowing the requirements and being in compliance with ASCAP et al, legal host, etc. Otherwise just having karaoke at all could get them sued, SC or not. The most I can do is make sure they know what is required and operate legally ourselves and let as many people who might be interested see that we are operating legally. We keep our receipts and we keep informed as to what is going on. I have our discs organized on Excel so we could easily produce a "pedigree" if need be and clear up any questions quickly. Where the venue choose to take it from there is part of the risk they assume just by opening their doors.
For me, using a computer is increasing a venue's esposure more than using SC so people who are truly concerned about protecting their venues should consider that. Expecially if other manufacturers do jump on the bandwagon. We use discs, we display a Safe Harbor number just for the heck of it, we make sure the venue knows what they are getting into and how to avoid trouble. We minimize their risk by operating legally and showing that we are operating legally. When we switch to computer we will register the library if that is what it takes to keep our venues safe. I feel that is enough. I don't have to give up using something I legally acquired.
The venue needs to cover it's own butt by knowing the requirements and being in compliance with ASCAP et al, legal host, etc. Otherwise just having karaoke at all could get them sued, SC or not. The most I can do is make sure they know what is required and operate legally ourselves and let as many people who might be interested see that we are operating legally. We keep our receipts and we keep informed as to what is going on. I have our discs organized on Excel so we could easily produce a "pedigree" if need be and clear up any questions quickly. Where the venue choose to take it from there is part of the risk they assume just by opening their doors.
If using a computer is increasing a venue's exposure, are you suggesting that we all go back to disc players? Why not for safety and health issues, we toss away all the automobiles and go back to horses too?
A venue's compliance or non-compliance with ASCAP has nothing -absolutely nothing to do with a DJ or KJ. SC is not a federally recognized entity like ASCAP, BMI or SEASAC.
If you truly loved me, you would understand my sense of humor.
Grumpy night for me. I oopsed, and I truly do..:winkpill:
1) Joe aren't you contradicting yourself a little from a previous post where you said to the effect: the venues talk to each other and what one does the others follow, given that would there not have to be a "leader"?
2) No you wouldn't need body armor in Charlotte, this get together has nothing to do with piracy or the issues at hand here, it has everything to do with camaraderie and a good time! Just as with the old Jolt conventions the very people who argued the most on the forums were usually the ones who paled around the most at the meetings! You really need to stop refering to it as something that will be negative because if you do come it is going to leave you disappointed as there is going to be no one there to argue with!
1) Nope, because I never said that- PERIOD. I only said that they communicate, and use the information shared. I NEVER said anything about "follow the leader".
2) The body armor thing was a joke, goofy Thunder. I know it would be a great time, especially with you there! I've never referred to it in the negative either- ever.. You may have read something out of context?
Honestly speaking, in the current climate, isnt using a computer also increasing a venue's exposure? Yet I don't see anyone (maybe Joe but it goes without saying) advising people to dump their computers. I don't care what you use, myself.
My mentioning of ASCAP was an attempt to point out that there are all sorts of hoops that a venue has to jump through in order to offer karaoke legally. They could get sued for any number of things. I was saying that they need to minimize their exposure by operating legally in many different areas which includes ASCAP and hiring a legal library KH. Minimizing the venue's exposure is also the responsibility of the venue and doesn't rest entirely on the KH giving up part of their legal library.
My mentioning of ASCAP was an attempt to point out that there are all sorts of hoops that a venue has to jump through in order to offer karaoke legally. They could get sued for any number of things. I was saying that they need to minimize their exposure by operating legally in many different areas which includes ASCAP and hiring a legal library KH. Minimizing the venue's exposure is also the responsibility of the venue and doesn't rest entirely on the KH giving up part of their legal library.
