The Science Of Sexual Orientation

[jatkins]

"Scientists" like this change their minds with every new research handout.

It's called empiricism. Science is not dogma. It is not (or at least, it ought not be) a doctrinal faith fanatically adhered to and defended by wild-eyed zealots. In the course of rigorous investigation and testing, the truth will out. Those that stick to their guns in spite of countervailing evidence are the bad scientists, not the good ones.

 

[smo1704]

It's called empiricism. Science is not dogma. It is not (or at least, it ought not be) a doctrinal faith fanatically adhered to and defended by wild-eyed zealots. In the course of rigorous investigation and testing, the truth will out. Those that stick to their guns in spite of countervailing evidence are the bad scientists, not the good ones.

Exactly. Couldn't have said it better.

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines

 

[GoingNova]

because identical twins are never completely identical.

identical twins: Twins derived from the same fertilized ovum that at an early stage of development becomes separated into independently growing cell aggregations, giving rise to two individuals of the same sex, identical genetic makeup, and closely similar appearance.

They are genetically. If you are born gay, how can two people with identical genetic material be of different sexual orientation? How can one be "born gay", but the other not, when they have the exact same genetic makeup?

 

[Guest]

Small epigenetic events before birth probably account for many of the minor distinguishing differences in the appearance, personality and general health of identical twins.

 

[GoingNova]

Small epigenetic events before birth probably account for many of the minor distinguishing differences in the appearance, personality and general health of identical twins.

I still believe that while people may be born with characteristics that make them more likely to choose to be gay, it is still a choice. I do not think anyone is born gay.

I guess folks, this one will have to wait for science for a definitive answer, as it is apparent no one here is going to change anyone else's mind.

 

[Guest]

I guess you are right Nova. No one is going to budge.

 

[smo1704]

identical twins: Twins derived from the same fertilized ovum that at an early stage of development becomes separated into independently growing cell aggregations, giving rise to two individuals of the same sex, identical genetic makeup, and closely similar appearance.

They are genetically. If you are born gay, how can two people with identical genetic material be of different sexual orientation? How can one be "born gay", but the other not, when they have the exact same genetic makeup?

Even if we assume that both twins have the same tendancy toward homosexuality, assuming that one twin must be gay if the other is gay is like assuming that since two quarters have the same probability of landing on heads, that if one does, the other must as well. The statistics aren't measuring only those who are "born gay," (those who have such an extreme predisposition toward homosexuality that the probability that the individual will turn out heterosexual is effectively 0) they include every admitted homosexual, (which also brings up the possibility of an individual being gay, but not admitting it for fear of social backlash) including those who have only a slight or moderate predisposition toward homosexuality and became homosexual largely due to environmental factors. In our society homosexuality is thought of in a binary manner, either you are gay, or you are not, with nothing in between. However, when homosexuality is modeled in an analog manner, with varying degrees of predisposition, you get results that are very similar to the observed phenomenon.

 

[Venus]

I have a question... since some of you seem to think that being gay is a
"CHOICE" I would like an explanation.

For those lil 3-5 year old kids (in this example let's choose lil boys)
that love to wear lip gloss and wear high heel shoes and stuff like that...
they don't know the difference, and with fathers trying to make them into
football players, and hockey players and baseball players, you think that to
get the love and respect of their own father they would chose at such a
young age and while growing up, as well, that they would "change" their
minds and "chose" not to be gay.
My point in this is... if they start so young showing signs of
homosexuality, wouldn't that make a very good argument that they are born
that way. Since some of you think that being gay is wrong, well at that age
they don't know the difference between right and wrong. But as they grow up,
they get a better sense of what is right and wrong, and still they are gay.
because they are born that way!!!!!!!!!!

 

[GoingNova]

Even if we assume that both twins have the same tendancy toward homosexuality, assuming that one twin must be gay if the other is gay is like assuming that since two quarters have the same probability of landing on heads, that if one does, the other must as well.

Smo, that is a silly comparison. Many scientists believe that if one twin has the exact same genetic makeup of the other, and is identical in every way, if one is born gay, the other should be born gay as well. Anything else suggests outside influences OTHER THAN BEING BORN THAT WAY, contribute to whether or not someone is gay.

 

[GoingNova]

My point in this is... if they start so young showing signs of
homosexuality, wouldn't that make a very good argument that they are born that way.

Not in the least. First of all, since when is a 3 year old boy wanting to put on his mother's high heel shoes, or wearing lip stick equate to him being gay? You are proving my point exactly. You see what you belive are "signs of homosexuality", and have already decided the boy is gay. A classic example of society and outside forces pushing someone in a direction they may not have gone.

A boy who has a very high voice. A boy who likes talking to girls. A boy who is not good at sports. All things society sees, and then in turn calls him GAY, or believes he is GAY. A life of this type of pushing is exactly one of the many things I believe eventually pushes someone into being gay.

 

[smo1704]

Smo, that is a silly comparison. Many scientists believe that if one twin has the exact same genetic makeup of the other, and is identical in every way, if one is born gay, the other should be born gay as well. Anything else suggests outside influences OTHER THAN BEING BORN THAT WAY, contribute to whether or not someone is gay.

OK, allow me to explain. I do not think that this is purely a matter of genetics since the prevalence of homosexuality is more consistent with something like a birth defect than a gene, and the genetic theory fails to explain why each successive male child has a higher probability of becoming homosexual (though it is entirely possible that, like the common cold, homosexuality may have a wide variety of different causes). I think that homosexuality is a range, not a binary yes or no matter (many things in nature are, like height, skin tone, hair color, etc.). From the evidence I've seen, there are people who are born gay, born straight, or born somewhere in the middle. Your twin study makes no distinction between those who were born gay and those for whom there was an environmental factor, even if that factor was a small one, so I do not think it is a suitable study from which to draw conclusions about those who are born gay.

I must also note that environmental factors do not imply choice. The environment often works in the background, shaping behavior without the individual's knowledge or consent.

 

[Guest]

Not in the least. First of all, since when is a 3 year old boy wanting to put on his mother's high heel shoes, or wearing lip stick equate to him being gay? You are proving my point exactly. You see what you believe are "signs of homosexuality", and have already decided the boy is gay. A classic example of society and outside forces pushing someone in a direction they may not have gone.

A boy who has a very high voice. A boy who likes talking to girls. A boy who is not good at sports. All things society sees, and then in turn calls him GAY, or believes he is GAY. A life of this type of pushing is exactly one of the many things I believe eventually pushes someone into being gay.

NOVA YOU AND I ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GO OUT FOR A BEER. (I don't drink but maybe I can be forced into it! NOT!)
I can't begin to tell you how many people have thought that I was gay because I like things to be neat and tidy;I like things to match; I like angels, hearts, and roses; I like Victorian furniture; I hate getting my hands dirty and I refuse to play contact sports; I love poetry and I don't like discussing my "bedroom" escapades with the guys; I don't comment on the hooters on women walking by and I don't find it enjoyable to watch women in strip joints.

No one regardless of what they say is going to influence me into becoming gay. (My sphincter muscle is cringing!) No one acts acts out "homosexuality" just because some people believes they are and keeps telling the person that they are gay. If I said to you every day that you were a neurosurgeon do you think you could eventually perform a surgery? NOT!

 

[GoingNova]

My sphincter muscle is cringing!)

GOOD FOR YOU! :laughing7 I actually laughed out loud at that one.

No one acts acts out "homosexuality" just because some people believes they are and keeps telling the person that they are gay. If I said to you every day that you were a neurosurgeon do you think you could eventually perform a surgery? NOT!

Irish, the world is full of people who are pushed into doing things because of other people. An overbearing mother, for example, can have a PROFOUND effect on her son.

As a matter of fact, raising my son, my wife and I like to read all kinds of parenting magazines for advice, and just to see what different opinions on child rearing are out there, and also perhaps for suggestions. Any way, one of the things I recently read said to not call your son or daughter "shy", because if children hear they are shy often enough, whether or not they actually are shy or not, they will become shy. Why? Because they always hear their mom or day say, "Oh, he is shy". Tell a boy he is gay often enough, and well, you get the idea.

My money is still on Masters and Johnson, who say you are not born gay.

 

[BabyBuddha]

Well my parents never said I was gay....they were actually quite surprised when I came out to them.......
Also ALL GAY MEN do not engage in ANAL SEX. Another misconception!!!
And Anal sex is not just preformed by GAY MEN, anyone and everyone can partake and enjoy some anal sex or play!!

 

[GoingNova]

anyone and everyone can partake and enjoy some anal sex or play!!

They should be aware, however, that is is considered a "dangerous" and "high risk" sexual behavior. A "happy go lucky" and "cavalier" attitude about it can get... YOUR **** IN TROUBLE! Pun intended!

 

[highlandronin26]

Anal sex is dangerous period! Nothing goes "in" the "out" hole. And what other type of sex could gay men partake in rather than oral sex Buddha?

 

[Venus]

In my previous post Nova, I was actually talking about an old guy friend of mine. So in this case the 3 year old wearing his mothers shoes and wearing her lip gloss did show signs of homosexuality, because he is GAY! Now I know that won't be the case for every lil boy wearing his mothers clothes or make-up but, it's a sure sign to me that if they start doing that at such a young age and turn out to be gay... means "THEY WERE BORN THAT WAY"!!!!!!!!!!

And as far as what your saying
"A classic example of society and outside forces pushing someone in a direction they may not have gone."

Did you miss the part where I said that the father was trying to get him to be a jock, a big man, trying to get him to play in baseball, hockey and football as young as 5, because he too saw the signs. Gay ppl are born that way weither you like it or not!

 

[GoingNova]

"THEY WERE BORN THAT WAY"!!!!!!!!!!

Not according to many scientists, including Masters and Johnson.

 

[Venus]

Well maybe so... but in my case I prefer to go straight to the source themselves... The gay population.
I agree with them that it's not a choice, that they are really born that way. Because when ppl like you and lots of others make them feel like outsiders, wouldn't you think that they would "chose" to go straight. If in fact it really was a "choice" that society has influenced.

 

[GoingNova]

Well maybe so... but in my case I prefer to go straight to the source themselves... The gay population.

There are many in the gay population who say it is a choice, some of who stop being gay.

I agree with them that it's not a choice, that they are really born that way. Because when ppl like you and lots of others make them feel like outsiders, wouldn't you think that they would "chose" to go straight. If in fact it really was a "choice" that society has influenced.

Invalid argument. People choose to do many things that society does not deem normal all the time, even though it opens them up to scorn and ridicule. I have no problem with gay people, nor do I suggest that people scorn or ridicule them. I just refuse to accept homosexuality as acceptable behavior.